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Thread: what disease is this?

  1. #21
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Resurrecting this thread- wondering how the shiro oranda turned out. Any idea?

  2. #22
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    Resurrecting this thread- wondering how the shiro oranda turned out. Any idea?

    That particular koi was owned by a female hobbyist who is now retired from the hobby as was told by the original poster as far as I could still remember. Of course that particular koi already died. I think the symptoms was caused by water quality.

  3. #23
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    I think it is a water quality problem as well. My avatar yamabuki, which won best in hikarimoyo last Feb, also has a less dramatic form of bulge on the head. It is struggling to survive, and I was told by our koi dealer that it is very hard to survive this.

    The problem is that the bacteria is acting internally. Once visible signs are detected, the infection is already advanced. I'm told even with injectable antibiotics, it is still as good as gone.

    I think that the swelling is a form of edema, where cells lose the integrity separating water inside the cells and outside the cells. The intracellular space becomes filled with water, as cells lose water as they die, and this where bloating, or edema occurs. By the time edema is observed, the pathogenic condition has already become systemic and is hard to arrest.

    This is in far contrast to skin ulcers and fin rot, where we observe the infection at the initial stage.

    I once again am humbled by bacteria, teaching me another lesson. I've had this yamabuki for 5 years, too short to enjoy it enough but long enough to have her lay one pretty female yamabuki to take her place. Her daughter may not have her full curves, but has a larger and stubby head that looks unique. Hope she can have as nice a kinrin as her mom.

  4. #24
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    I think it is a water quality problem as well. My avatar yamabuki, which won best in hikarimoyo last Feb, also has a less dramatic form of bulge on the head. It is struggling to survive, and I was told by our koi dealer that it is very hard to survive this.

    The problem is that the bacteria is acting internally. Once visible signs are detected, the infection is already advanced. I'm told even with injectable antibiotics, it is still as good as gone.

    I think that the swelling is a form of edema, where cells lose the integrity separating water inside the cells and outside the cells. The intracellular space becomes filled with water, as cells lose water as they die, and this where bloating, or edema occurs. By the time edema is observed, the pathogenic condition has already become systemic and is hard to arrest.

    This is in far contrast to skin ulcers and fin rot, where we observe the infection at the initial stage.

    I once again am humbled by bacteria, teaching me another lesson. I've had this yamabuki for 5 years, too short to enjoy it enough but long enough to have her sire one pretty female yamabuki to take its place. Her daughter may not have her full curves, but has a larger and stubby head that looks unique. Hope she can have as nice a kinrin as her mom.
    So sorry to hear about that.

    Personally I think its not bacterial but viral.

    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

  5. #25
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Why do you think it's viral?

  6. #26
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Bacteria typically attack cells of the host, creating rot. Virus takes over cells of the host, causing 'malfunctions'. When viral infections result in death, it is usually due to secondary bacterial infection (such as with KHV leading to gill rot) or organ malfunction (such as hepatitis' impact on liver function).

  7. #27
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    So there is a good chance that if the pathological state originates from within rather than from without, in the case of koi, that it would be viral? Conversely, there would be a lesser chance that the cause is viral is the infection originates externally?

    The difficulty with virus is that it can only be confirmed, with no absolute certainty, with bio markers.

  8. #28
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    So there is a good chance that if the pathological state originates from within rather than from without, in the case of koi, that it would be viral? Conversely, there would be a lesser chance that the cause is viral is the infection originates externally?

    The difficulty with virus is that it can only be confirmed, with no absolute certainty, with bio markers.
    I would not generalize in that way.

    The condition of the Shiro Utsuri discussed in this thread is a matter of cells growing/reproducing abnormally. So, if not cancerous, the agent would be more likely viral and not bacterial. ....Of course, there is evidence of connections between some cancers/tumors and viral infection. Even if considered a form of tumor, the growths could have a viral root.

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