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Thread: Fading Beni

  1. #1
    Tosai
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    Apr 2007
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    Fading Beni

    I have doitsu tancho sanke that is about 5-6 years old and this summer the tancho gradually faded and now it is almost completely gone. I also have a goshiki with fading beni as well. I do not feed food with spirulina as I heard this can affect the white areas of the kois. Is this mainly genetics or the water quality? What can be done currently to prevent further deteriation as I have some young kohakus. Thanks

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    On an older fish, fading red pigment is generally associated with a stress factor in the water. No direct cause-effect has been established as far as I am aware, but there always seems to have been a sudden change in water conditions, or the presence of undesirable chemicals or metals. In young koi, one among a group of siblings may fade due to genetics without a stressor being identifiable.

    Think back to what has occurred affecting the pond in the period beginning a few weeks before you noticed any fading.

  3. #3
    Tosai
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    I can't really think of a specific stressor to have caused this. Does hard or soft water affect the color at all??

  4. #4
    Nisai oldslugger's Avatar
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    I had a cheap kohaku bought from a garden centre that started to lose its beni when we had real poor water quality issues in the temp pond. The beni had a washed out look, after moving into the new pond, it slowly regained its beni, now its looks vibrant, similar to the other kois.

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Water hardness can affect color, but the fading you describe would typically correlate with a sudden change from soft water to hard water or vice versa.

  6. #6
    Jumbo farne230's Avatar
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    Pictures please.
    Bob

  7. #7
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    A couple of other questions. Males or Females? Are all the fader's Doitsu?

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    Pictures would be helpful. But honestly, It is likely fundamentally about genetics based on the varieties you mentioned.
    Tancho is of course, a kohaku genetics ( even on sanke). But the beni is restricted to the thinnest dermis layer on the entire body- I.E. the head. MANY tancho babies only have beni in the upper dermis or even just epidermis. This 'looks' good when they are very young, but as skin thickens/widens these poor layers of beni cells disassociate and become light orange or even yellow in color. This is a basic lack of cell count and depth along with poor genetic expression.
    Goshiki is different. Goshiki is a black based fish in the older style. In the modern style can be either black based or white based. This does not mean that the black is under the white as the Japanese express it for visualization purposes only. It means that black based gene expression is stronger in these fish than the mutation gene for white or red. So areas on the fish are expressing different gene phenotype with one being fundamentally dominate over the other in areas of pattern. Still the Japanese are wise. And they are telling us that one will eventually win out over the other as the fish ages. So all old style goshiki eventually give way to sumi dominance. Even if red remains it becomes highly influenced by melanin production and the luster of red fades to black and red or dull purple and growing black density. In modern types the gosanke beni also gives way to the more powerful sumi expression. OR the bei could just be the same as tancho and thin and giving way with age- another genetic based 'order' being given to the phenotype post puberty . JR

  9. #9
    Tosai
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    the goshiki is male and the tancho sanke is female and they are both over 8 years old. I have 3 kohakus that I am not sure if they are fading. The other ones are showa (slight fading on beni), ogons etc. Here are some pics:



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