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Thread: Postulation for discussion

  1. #1
    MCA
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    Postulation for discussion

    Postulation
    All nishikigoi are from the same genus and species (Cyprinus Carpio) of riverine carp and therefore share, on average, the same environmental requirement ranges for surviving and thriving.


    If you do not agree....what is in error?

    If you do agree...what are the logical consequences?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
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    I agree ( kinda)

    As you know, I came up with the concept of survival vs thriving as a way to open the reader's mind to the notion that koi can survive a very broad range of conditions but only 'shine' in a much narrower band within that survival range.
    SO wild carp have a both a broader survival range and broad thriving range. The mission statement of wild carp is to grow rapidly so they can reproduce and perpetuate the race. If a fish makes it to breeding age- good enough. And carp persist as a member of foreign ecosystems ( as a transplant) yet never flourish. Tiny disc like fatties where the winters are long and bitter and butt ugly skinny jumbos in tropical setttings.

    Koi, on the other hand, the result of mutation and then intense inbreeding, have a more narrow range of bother survival and flourishing than the common carp wild race. Ironically, their flourishing range is closer to the survival range as a result of the more narrow survival range. This means that koi do well to the untrained eye in almost any body of water within a pH range of 6.6- 10. and a temperature of 34F- 96 F. And water as hard as rock or as soft as distilled water ( not really! but you get my point).
    The real telling parameter that really separates wild carp from Nishikigoi is the oxygen reading. With wild carp being the champs of 'breath holding' LOLs. being able to live for an extended time in remarkably low oxygenated water. Koi will keel over long before their wild brethern. This extends then to ORP and gas exhange in general where wild carp are quite sturdy in the survival range and koi are not. - JR

  3. #3
    Honmei
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    JR,
    Correct me here if I sam wrong but are there not some physiol;ogical differences between the two as well due to the mutations and imbreeding.....digestive tract lengths, etc?

    Also, and I again I am just thinking out loud, are there not differences that may well effect the appearance of koi (that would matter for showing type purpses) that on wild species would not matter at all. Such as pigment deterioration that could lead to pattern decay? Or issues that affect skin quality etc?

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    Yep Steve, those things are true, but we are talking about survival range vs optimal ranges ( water parameters). The differences you mentioned would come into play if we were going to release nishikigoi back into the wild to experience the conditions a wild carp experiences and compete head to head with wild carp at the level of survival and thriving. Wild carp for instance, store much more glycogen and vitamins in organs as they are highly conditioned to the winters they must survive in. Those that don't, are 'gone' from the breeding pool next spring. Or certainly not in condition to compete. And wild koi are true foragers and therfore eat small amounts all day long.
    But this can all be simplified around MCA's assumption by saying once domesticated via line breeding for attributes other than survival, the survival range shrinks and so does the thriving component within that broader band.
    And lastly, keep in mind the idea of ideal metabolic performance and skin appearance ( what we really look for in thriving fish- color and luster). Although these are obviously linked, there is also a unique dimension to the two. Color is a link to the nervous system ( sumi) but also the dietary mix ( the color red). So nishikigoi are also about special considerations in water parameters that wild carp is uninterested in. - JR

  5. #5
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Your point about he survival/thriving range differences between Koi and wild carp is one I think many people miss, resulting in a lot of unhealthy and/or dead Koi. I've seen many a stagnant pool or slew with a decent population of carp in it. That water would kill a Koi from oxygen deprivation in a heartbeat but somehow their wild counterparts manage just fine.
    It does help to explain where ADI got their business model though...

  6. #6
    MCA
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    Note I said all nishikigoi....I did not say all in the species Carpio....big difference.

    So now that we focusing on nishikigoi only and if the postulation is correct....what does that tell us about "show fish" versus "pond grade" regarding environmental requirements?

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    not a lot. Pond grade can be culls of higher grade. One man's tategoi is another man's tateshita.
    And MCA, I was never talking about different species of carp? Just different races ( same species) - JR

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    MCA: Generally the more in-bred an animal, the weaker, whether dealing with dogs, cows, turkeys, or ornamental fish. The degree of increased weakness, i.e., susceptibility to disease or environmental stresses, may vary, but it has been consistently observed. So, I think it safe to say that taken as a whole, show koi will be weaker than flock-spawned pond grade fish as a group. Individuals will differ, exceptions will exist, etc. Note, however, that in a recent thread on NI Peter Waddington suggested a concept of what constitutes 'nishikigoi' that might exclude those flock-spawned pond grade fish. So, some hair-splitting on definitions can get into play.

  9. #9
    MCA
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    I propose that there are no practical differences between show fish and pond fish on the science level of an hobbyist...not on the level of an Icthyologist (or similar). Therefore for optimial health and growth, all nishikigoi, on average, need the same environment.

    If not, how much less DO will a ponder requirement? How much more ammoina can a ponder tolerate?

  10. #10
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    I am at the start of comparative study between koi and carp in Australia - both being considered as Cyprinus carpio by the scientific community. Koi are stretched onto a proposed government list as the domesticated version of carp with no methodology for separating the two. I would not want to be on that committe!

    Within the river carp, there are DNA and mRNA analysis that have accepted separate strains. Between these strains, there are differences in the survival ranges.

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