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Thread: sick Koi. Please help urgently

  1. #101
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obman View Post
    Sorry, I meant Dylox.
    Jungle Fizz contents: nitrofurazone, furazolidone, Potassium Dicromate, Methylene blue, acriflavine.
    I used it in QT for that fish and also did one treatment during the time which I thought was "stabilized". It is hard to tell. It is due for the second Tx (4 days later)
    As far as Dylox is concerned I'd stay away from it esp. if you don't know your exact gallonage.
    Acute toxicity for freshwater invertebrates: .18-7300 ppb
    - Based on studies available to assess hazards to wildlife and aquatic
    organisms, technical trichlorfon is characterized as highly toxic to
    both cold water and warm water fish, very highly toxic to freshwater
    invertebrates and highly toxic to birds. Label precautions required
    by this Guidance Document should reduce the hazard to wildlife and
    aquatic organisms.
    Jungle fizz-those ingredients do do what it states on the sales label.
    Are you planning to do this again in a qt?
    I myself would use salt. Your problems with salt aren't making sense to me.
    I am having a hard time saying go ahead because I am not familiar with it and don't feel it will eliminate the problems and we'd be back at square one. On the other hand, if it knocks back the parasites and bacteria enough for them to heal on their own, who knows, may work. So why don't you decide and if you do use it, let me know what you did and how and maybe I will learn something. Hows that sound? terri

    Edit-OK Dylox is used for erradication of crustaceans, anchor worm etc. You don't need it again. The product I use is dimilin-hence my confusion. Less toxic than organophosphates.
    Terri Janas
    Master Koi Health Advisor
    Member of
    ZNA Potomac
    MAKC

  2. #102
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    OK, it is raining hard here. I will leave the Kois alone and see how they do tomorrow. Don't want to add anything with the rain as it can cloud the picture. Will reassess tomorrow. I go to work very early tomorrow so I won't be checking the Kois or write until about noon-ish. Will definitely keep everyone posted

  3. #103
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    [quote=koiluv;125762] Your problems with salt aren't making sense to me.
    [quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by obman View Post
    One interesting observation is that any fish that was removed for quarantine or salt bath or exam would almost certainly die very shortly!
    Question to David,

    Describe the salt your using? Is it with or without iodine?

  4. #104
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    [quote=mstrseed;125768][quote=koiluv;125762] Your problems with salt aren't making sense to me.



    Question to David,

    Describe the salt your using? Is it with or without iodine?
    OK, I am back from work early. Kosher Salt that my wife use in the kitchen. No Iodide if that is what you wanted to know. The Kois looked great today. Swimming around, I guess they are excited about the rain which only springkles at the moment. My mother-in-law who came from NJ to visit fed them before I got home and I was told they ate well. May be they got over the death sentences? The few that have membranes/ white patches are still hiding but they didn't die or worsen. That is 24 hours without one dead fish!

  5. #105
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    Yep, just making sure.........

    How about the tub you placed them into has it been used for anything else??

  6. #106
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    It sounds like you're heading in the right direction. Keep up the great work.

  7. #107
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstrseed View Post
    Yep, just making sure.........

    How about the tub you placed them into has it been used for anything else??
    I used them to keep the lotus and lillies for one month while the new pond was submerged in new water way back few months ago. All the tanks ( I have 4) were submerged in water at least 1 week prior to any aquatic use even for plants to make sure the plastic chemicals are gone. My mistake was not to quarantine the new fish when I added them massively to the pond.

    "But I really would not seek advise from the person who built your pond the landscaper..............his design caused these problems."

    Couldn't agree more with you on that one. I originally wanted an additional external filter but he told me that the water fall biofilter would be enough! Now I have to retrofit and add it into the syhstem. Much more work and also ugly as it was not planned for, I have to clear an area to fit it in.

  8. #108
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    There are some very competent contractors who could help you resolve you issues in the area............would not be free but would be able to assess the grounds, pond and make suggestions along with viable improvements.....

  9. #109
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstrseed View Post
    There are some very competent contractors who could help you resolve you issues in the area............would not be free but would be able to assess the grounds, pond and make suggestions along with viable improvements.....
    Do you know of one?

  10. #110
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Thats good news but we still have the guys on the bottom.
    Just for info-Salt we use can be plain salt, rock salt, and ocean salt. We want no trace minerals or YPS and better if not iodized, but iodized salt is really not hazardous to fish but can harm the filter unlike other salts.
    We donít want to use salt year round, but let me see if I can convince you why itís so important now.
    Ulcers are created basically by parasites. Secondary, the bacteria moves in and water molds start to cover them. We talked about that. With out a culture and sensitivity, we know that, when you have ulcers, 80% + of the time they are they gram negative-aeromonas and spread quickly. It is also contagious to other fish that's why we quarantine. First thing we need to do when we have ulcers is remove all the stressors we can and use salt in every case. Here's why.
    It requires their body a lot of energy to maintain the proper internal salt balance. Fresh water fish are hypertonic meaning they are saltier than water. Water comes in through the gills and skin up to 50% of their body weight in just one hour. They constantly have challenges of salt depletion. The chloride cells in their gills actually conserve salt for them. Loss of salt is often a contributor to kidney failure and gills. Dropsy is a sign of this. So by adding salt and decreasing the stress for him to regulate water, he can use more energy to heal and boost his immune system. Even respiration becomes easier (when the gills are damaged) , they are eased in how hard they have to work when salt enters the picture. 75% of ammonia is excreted by the gills so we need them to work not only for respiration, but to remove ammonia or ammonia can build up in their system killing them also. Any time you have a breach in the skin like an ulcer, it increases the osmotic stress on the fish which in turn decreases his immune system etc. Ulcers also increase mucus production. That takes a lot out of them too and even more he has to deal with.
    Youíre a physician; the guys clamped on the bottom are showing you they are unable to maintain normal physiological state. Stress is a chain of events, either the fish adapts himself or he becomes exhausted and dies. Right now you said the salt is at .08%. This is actually helping them some. Should the ulcers enlarge or salt decrease with water changes, we could run into immediate problems. .9% salt is in the fishes body now. .3%-.6% helps not hurts when the body cavity is open. Close to .9% and over will kill him pretty quickly, not over night or even several hours later. If you think the salt is the problem, I think itís something else. Stress of catching etc. Think about this. Salt will help the others from catching things because it kills many parasites. I still would like to see you use salt. I have done this enough, this is a temporary thing your seeing.
    As a side note-I donít know if jungle fizz can be used pond wide, but it has ABX in it, it can kill the filter, so be prepared for that should you use it pond wide. Terri

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