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Thread: sick Koi. Please help urgently

  1. #121
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Another thing: the "survivor" one that came back from near death has large ulcer on his left body now. I hope the salt will help him. After this, I can not use Proform C. Terri, I am going with your expertise. Keeping my fingers crossed.... Also, Should I wait until I get the salt kit tomorrow to find the baseline first or just go ahead with one bag tonight?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by koiluv View Post
    Super Kindai-Curious why you feel you need to stop feeding?
    Terri

    Hi Terri, I can not explain why scientifically but to stop feeding during a medication or salt bathing is a common sense among breeders, dealers and hobbyists in Japan.... except a medicated food feeding method.

  3. #123
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    I don't know if it applies in all cases but if feeding the koi, feeds the infection. It makes sense because their body has to work to digest the food.

  4. #124
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obman View Post
    Another thing: the "survivor" one that came back from near death has large ulcer on his left body now. I hope the salt will help him. After this, I can not use Proform C. Terri, I am going with your expertise. Keeping my fingers crossed.... Also, Should I wait until I get the salt kit tomorrow to find the baseline first or just go ahead with one bag tonight?
    The salt will help him. Let's wait until tomorrow when you get the test kit. Do a 10% water change first. That way you can do the formula so we can know the pond volume. As far as the Pro form, they have had 3 treatments, so that possibly helped us, but we need to move to salt next to support them and then turn our attention back to the damage. I worry about more gill damage with the pro form too. Later on we will need to find other methods to use like bath treatments when they can be handled. Maybe even the jungle tab. I am hoping we can let them sit quietly for about 5 days in the salt before we start anything else.

    Well I had never heard not to feed because we often use medicated food. I would say don't feed in a non-filtered system though. I will have to look further into that. I know for myself, anytime I am working with Koi when I have to handle them, I always feed them immediately afterwards to get their mind off what they just went through and to forgive me!!
    Happy Thanksgiving everybody, stay well and safe!
    Terri
    Terri Janas
    Master Koi Health Advisor
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  5. #125
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koiluv View Post
    Well I had never heard not to feed because we often use medicated food. I would say don't feed in a non-filtered system though. I will have to look further into that. I know for myself, anytime I am working with Koi when I have to handle them, I always feed them immediately afterwards to get their mind off what they just went through and to forgive me!!
    Happy Thanksgiving everybody, stay well and safe!
    Terri

    Hi Terri

    I do know that dealers in California, and all the breeders I have meet over the years, never feed the koi prior to during or after any procedure. They will feed koi an antibiotic paste food, but not any regular feed. I have always beleived that you need to let them rest and the less waste in the water caused by feeding is much better for there health and recovery.

    Personally I would never feed any of my koi after I had been "working on them", such as an injection, or debriding an injury or infection. It is less stress on the koi, and they seem to recover better with nothing in there gut to rot.

    These are just my personal observations, and I have no scientific proof.

  6. #126
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Very interesting. I don't know about rotting in the gut. After anesthesia their system is slower, but perks right up. I would think it takes several days for food to rot. I have never with held food unless transporting, never had a problem and never read or heard that, but that certainly doesn't mean it's not beneficial.
    As I think about this, I will say, it requires energy for them to digest food which could be better spent elsewhere, maybe that's part of why they suggest you don't or as was mentioned, it feeds an infection. I would think they need nutrition now esp. vit c. Interesting to think about. If you all feel it's better for him not to, lets go with that. We all know Koi can go long periods without eating unlike humans.
    I am going to ask a fish vet. I'd like to hear what they say and I'll report back.
    Terri

  7. #127
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    A few things I'm sure you are noticing from the general content of the posts is the fact that we are all a) pretty much on the same page and b) all of us continual students of Koi husbandry. Even as we teach we learn, and in this case it is important to keep your focus on the major points and learn along the way about the minor ones (right along with the rest of us).

    Don's Salt compendium (and a mighty fine one it is) gives a good perspective on what you are actually accomplishing with the treatments. Your Koi are naturally under a great deal of physical stress as they deal with attacks on their body from multiple sources. Parasites, Molds, Bacteria, all acting as opportunistic pathogens using your Koi as a host. Their osmoregulatory systems are working in overdrive trying to maintain some semblance of normalcy while their skin and gills are under attack and no doubt their immune system is struggling to manufacture sufficient antibodies to cope with specific issues all at once.

    While Salt is by no means a cure all, in a circumstance like this it accomplishes several things. Obviously it facilitates the osmotic function in a way that reduces physical stress on the fish. Less energy needed for osmoregulation frees up their physical resources for other immune functions. While the Salt will not nuke the parasites and bacteria it does slow their progress and kill off some of them. That reduces the level of "attack" the Koi have to deal with. These two things result in the Koi having their natural immune responses somewhat enhanced while fighting a "wounded" enemy.

    If I am under attack my chances of survival are improved if I am stronger and my attacker is bleeding. It doesn't matter if my attacker is wounded by me or by others, only that he is wounded. That is what the Salt is doing for your Koi. Wounding the enemy while strengthening the Koi in the least stressful manner.

    Other treatments will come later after they have had a chance to win these early skirmishes, but by then the Koi will be sufficiently strong and healthier to handle the treatments without going through life threatening stress.

    Now, have a Happy Thanksgiving and "destress" your Koi AND Yourself
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  8. #128
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    I would like to thank everyone for your immense support/help. I am so excited that I woke up 6AM today preparing my Koi shopping list. It is still dark out there so I can't check on the Kois. Will keep you all posted but probably late afternoon when I get back. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

  9. #129
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Good luck finding everything on your list. Are those kinds of stores open today?

  10. #130
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    Good luck finding everything on your list. Are those kinds of stores open today?
    Excellent question BAd day for me today. Woke up early, was so excited. Drove 1.5 hrs to Mystic Koi only to find a big "closed for 2 days" sign hanging on the door. But no, I spoke to the owner last weekend and he told me to come at 10 AM today. I waited 15 more minutes to make sure that he doesn't come to check on the store and meet with me! It finally struck me that he probably forgot to realize that it is Thanksgiving day. Well, still early, I thought. I went ahead and drove to Orange County to various stores. Met with a few people to talk about Kois and then by the time I hit the stores, they are about to close. Drove back to the San Gabriel city (all the destinations are about 1 hr more or less apart). I know they open because they called me yesterday and told me about the Thanksgiving special they have and they are holding a few nice Kois for me ( I lent the owner some money to purchase Kois under the condition that they call me when they get the fish in so I get first pick). Having an uneasy feeling, I called them to confirm only to find out that they close in 5 minutes. Forget that, time to go home. I was tired, depressed, sleepy, stuck in LA traffic for 2 hours. I for some reasons went on the 405 and people are packed on that freeway most likely is from the airport and the Santa Monica Beach. On the way back home, I swung by Home Depot to get the salt and again only to find an empty parking lot. Once I got home, my mother-in-law informed me that she found one dead Koi and she put it on the ground. It is now dried up. It is getting dark but I could see "the survivor" floating on the surface again, looking not too hot with obvious ulcers (picture attached). I got him out and put in the QT with salt and Fizz tab. This is my last resort. Without the salt, I am tempted to treat the pond with fizz tab tonight. But I promised Terri I would hold off and use salt. Not a good day for me. Hope you all have a better day.

    EDIT:
    Compare picture to post # 29, 5-6 days ago
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sick Koi. Please help urgently-dscn4015.jpg  

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