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Thread: sick Koi. Please help urgently

  1. #141
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    OK, all the salt I have are in. They are not much but something is better than nothing.

  2. #142
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    What do you mean, all the salt is in? What % did you raise it to?

    David, I know you're desperate to save your koi but you can't keep throwing different things at them without a plan. Some meds don't mix with others or don't mix with salt. Sometimes using too many things will cloud other issues that are going on that you can't see. It also stresses them.

    Treatment has to be done in an orderly manner. Your koi are not strong enough right now to keep bouncing from one treatment to another.

    I'm really sorry you're having all these issues but lets do one step at a time to try and pull them through this.

    BTW, have you thought about joining the KHA program? It's too late for this course but you should check into it for next year. You will learn a lot about how to keep your water so your koi can thrive.

  3. #143
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    What do you mean, all the salt is in? What % did you raise it to?

    David, I know you're desperate to save your koi but you can't keep throwing different things at them without a plan. Some meds don't mix with others or don't mix with salt. Sometimes using too many things will cloud other issues that are going on that you can't see. It also stresses them.

    Treatment has to be done in an orderly manner. Your koi are not strong enough right now to keep bouncing from one treatment to another.

    I'm really sorry you're having all these issues but lets do one step at a time to try and pull them through this.

    BTW, have you thought about joining the KHA program? It's too late for this course but you should check into it for next year. You will learn a lot about how to keep your water so your koi can thrive.
    Sorry, I meant the 10# of salt I have at hands. It will barely raise the concentration much as the pond is 3000 gallons.

  4. #144
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Oh Boy...
    First off, Papa Bear, very well said. I loved your example of wounding the enemy!
    Sorry about the tough day David. Sandy is right about mixing things.
    Where to start....Rock salt and Kosher salt was fine. That was @12lbs and a good idea. That's a huge difference in the amount of infection in 5 days. Can you see through your water, is it clear in a cup? Describe to me.
    The grey areas you see on the Koi indicates the presence of bacteria in the SAP fibers. Over time you may see them turn brown or green from algae and debris. SAP is not very common on the fish and usually comes from stress, overcrowding and high organics in the water. You have all three.
    So Please don't buy anymore fish now. Most recommend at the very minimum- 250 gals. per fish, but best much higher. I have 1,000 gals per fish and a lot of filtration. Briefly- Koi are very messy. They grow to 2 and 3 feet long.
    PP-I am not sure what to say here. It is sometimes used with SAP. Not the number one choice, but it does kill. The number one choice is malachite green, also very potent and number two choice is salt. I am afraid to think about how you applied the PP. Did you lift him from the water for example to clean these areas?
    Tomorrow do a water change and get the salt up to 3%. Don't handle anybody. I'd get an ORP meter next so we can get an idea of the water quality. More on that later. Also add to your list Koizyme so we can begin to starve out the bacteria.
    Again, I do feel in your case, a veterinarian should be brought in. We need some one pond side and to teach you handling. We will need a vet if they need injectable antibiotics which they most likely do right now. We can all help the best we can, but we don’t ever replace veterinarians. All that being said, I am happy to help you manage from here as best I can, but please know it would be best to have a vet at least involved. I believe we are all trying to do the best we can here, but understand the risks to your fish. The infections are moving rapidly.
    Terri Janas
    Master Koi Health Advisor
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    ZNA Potomac
    MAKC

  5. #145
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    The water is clear except for a lot of foam which I intend to suck out with my new shop-vac. I will see if I can get all the equipment tomorrow. I handled the Fish in a small bucket but he is never out of the water completely, I learned that lesson. I left him in the QT for 1 hour with .5% salt concentration then released him back to the pond because I am getting nightmares now that all fishes died in that QT overnight.

  6. #146
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obman View Post
    The water is clear except for a lot of foam which I intend to suck out with my new shop-vac. I will see if I can get all the equipment tomorrow. I handled the Fish in a small bucket but he is never out of the water completely, I learned that lesson. I left him in the QT for 1 hour with .5% salt concentration then released him back to the pond because I am getting nightmares now that all fishes died in that QT overnight.
    Didn't you say previously there was some foam and now we have a lot of foam? Big difference. That means very high organics. If so they wont heal in water with that high organics no matter what we do, that's feeding the aeromonas. Now I definitely say stop feeding. You probably need a much larger water change then I've been suggesting with the vacuuming, like 50% or up to 2,000 gals. Once the salt goes in, we don't change much water for 2 weeks, so your call Doc.
    I mentioned salt works with SAP last night and actually a salt bath of .6% for 30 minutes every fews days or as needed is what I usually do to start. In your case we haven't been able to pull them. So what you did last night was a good thing, except maybe the PP. Next time if you pull him, go to .6%.
    If the SAP is as bad as the photo though it usually means the gills are worse. Did he make it this morning? Also the other areas you see are ulcers in various stages with SAP soon to follow. Did you happen to check his belly or gills?
    One other thing-The PP you used. I know how one small crystal of PP spreads when it hits water. I believe there is no way to treat him with PP paste in the water like you did without it spreading in the water around him, how would you rinse it off with out lifting him? The strength of it in the bucket for a few seconds would destroy his gills, so stop using the PP.

    The ORP meter-it gives us an idea of water condition. It can be used for various things like PP treatments or water change time, but for us here it would -in simple terms-shows us the waters ability to absorb oxygen and how high it is in debris/organics. Even clear water can be high in debris. For instance slime coat is clear and organic. Oxygen transfer takes place on the surface of the water. If the water is high in debris the number (at least on a pin point) is low and tells us the water can't attract enough O2 molecules esp for healing. Many variables go into it like PH of the water, salt, Calcium etc., but we get a close idea with the number. The lowest number I have ever found was 130 and that's pretty bad. The fish were starting to become ill, some were, and their overall health was poor as was any growth. For you we need a number at least 250 and higher for healing. Maybe someone here can add to this with more info or a link. It can be a very pretty detailed subject.
    Terri

  7. #147
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Just an update. "The survivor" succumbed and passed away this AM. I checked on him early and he was floating as usual so I went to Home Depot to get the salt. When I came back my MIL told me that she found the Koi dead at the bottom so she took him out. I am doing a 50% water change as I am typing this. Today, hoprfully I can get the rest of the equipment and may be installing tomorrow.

    Other thoughts: I don't know if I should just empty the pond and start all over. I can keep the Kois in the QT tanks.

    Edit:
    I did a 50% water change and added 20# of salt. Will check on salt level and continue to increase it daily.

  8. #148
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obman View Post
    Just an update. "The survivor" succumbed and passed away this AM. I checked on him early and he was floating as usual so I went to Home Depot to get the salt. When I came back my MIL told me that she found the Koi dead at the bottom so she took him out. I am doing a 50% water change as I am typing this. Today, hoprfully I can get the rest of the equipment and may be installing tomorrow.

    Other thoughts: I don't know if I should just empty the pond and start all over. I can keep the Kois in the QT tanks.

    Edit:
    I did a 50% water change and added 20# of salt. Will check on salt level and continue to increase it daily.
    Why do you think the koi died, the PP or handling?
    Was his mouth open when you saw him or closed?
    Did you or her check his gills? Can you get me a photo?
    How many fish alive, estimate # and sizes or total inches?
    How many gals. in QT tanks total?
    Terri

  9. #149
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    I think is is handling. The Koi was still OK this AM when I left for one hour to get the salt. I think my MIL saw the sick Koi and put it in the small bucket. She probably think it is just like any other gold fish. The Koi certainly die in that environment from haddling, stress, no air. I didn't pay much attention to the mouth but I think it was closed. Picture attached. He is burried at this point. The QT tank is 35 Gal. The Koi was in a small bucket, not in the QT tank when I got home

    A wild estimate is 40 Kois left, ranging in size from 2 inches (3-4), mostly 6-8 inches, a few very large ones 12-20 inches (4-5)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sick Koi. Please help urgently-dscn4021.jpg   sick Koi. Please help urgently-dscn4028.jpg  

  10. #150
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    This fish got to this stage in 2 days
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sick Koi. Please help urgently-dscn4030.jpg  

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