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Thread: sick Koi. Please help urgently

  1. #31
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    I can't really tell anything from the pic. It's not clear enough.

    With all the issues you have going on, you really need someone at your pond, in person. Let's see if we can get that to happen this weekend.
    That would be a blessing!!!

  2. #32
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obman View Post
    Total 4. The last Tx before today was 3 days ago. I will not add anything else until further advice. Also, I managed to catch one more ill Koi. This one is very dear to me!!!! Please take a look at the lesion on the head
    I can see why that one is dear to you, pretty baby that one.

    IF it is just lesions, it could be it did it on the rocks. When you get the water situation stable and good it should heal up fine.
    did you get the rocks out? in one post said you had, in one said the koi were hidding in the rocks.
    sorry you are having a hard steep learning curve, things will get better as you learn.

    if the rocks are still in the pond wait till someone here or once you have someone on hand tell you it is safe to remove them, they trap all kinds of stuff and it is going to be a toxic task getting them out

  3. #33
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg View Post
    I can see why that one is dear to you, pretty baby that one.

    IF it is just lesions, it could be it did it on the rocks. When you get the water situation stable and good it should heal up fine.
    did you get the rocks out? in one post said you had, in one said the koi were hidding in the rocks.
    sorry you are having a hard steep learning curve, things will get better as you learn.

    if the rocks are still in the pond wait till someone here or once you have someone on hand tell you it is safe to remove them, they trap all kinds of stuff and it is going to be a toxic task getting them out
    I removed 1 truck load of rocks from the pond. However, the lillies and the lotus pots were attached to some rocks and I also used other rocks to support the base as my area has hich wind. The air bubble lines were also anchored to the bottom by some rocks. If you feel necessary, I will get rid of all plants and rocks. Then it will simply be a bare pond, possible better to keep clean. That Koi is not only pretty, it is the last of the whole premium batch that I had. Some of which are very rare. Unfortunately, they were the first ones to die.

  4. #34
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    I see you were given lots of great help today! I do hope you can find a KHA near you and I also think a vet should be brought in because you most likely will need antibiotic injections for the worst ones.
    I wanted to go over a couple things with you that you may or may not already know just to be safe. It is important for it to be as stress free as possible for the koi when you handle them for exams etc. Never lift them out of the water when you net them, they need to always be in water. If you need instructions on how to do this, let us know. If using new water, the water they go into needs to be well aerated for at least 3 hours, close in temperature and PH. Also keep a small air stone going in that tub as well. Stay in the shade. When scraping, go easy, no hard pressure is needed. I believe the rods you saw moving were flexobactor columnaris, it has a haystack appearance-long thin rod, which makes sense with the growth you see in the photos. If you watch the slide for around 15-20 minutes, you'd see them gather together again. This disease worsens and spreads rapidly in warm water, so better not to heat right now in any way. It also worsens in organic laden water, so your KHA will suggest you remove all rocks and plants esp. while treating. Parasites hide in these places and will reinfect. If you return these plants to the pond they will need to be disinfected using something like Potassium promanganate or a bleach solution. Same with any new plants for the rest of their lives.
    Laying over sideways can be many things but commonly it is a symptom of a PH swing. Can you check your PH morning, noon and at dark for one day for me to see if it changes? Plants also increase this swing. PH swings add to their stress hindering them from recovering once you start treatments so we need to get that under control.
    Do you use baking soda or CaCl to buffer or are your KH and GH natural?
    Also what is your salt level now?
    I'd also suggest purchasing medicated koi food and switch to that for 2 weeks.
    Your situation will be tricky to treat. The cottony areas will need to be scraped off gently and disinfected before the Pro Form C will work because Flex buries itself and hooks in the tissue. That's why you saw only temporary relief. They should be sedated when you do this.
    No more new Koi- quarantine any new fish before ever adding to your collection. A good book to purchase is Doc Johnson's Koi health and disease. I like it because it's easy for beginners to understand and has a lot of info on the microscope to help identify parasites.
    Lastly-what color were the gills of the one you pulled today? Pro Form could put them over the edge if they aren't healthy so you may not be able to do an in pond treatment. Sorry again for your troubles, your doing great, hang in there and keep us posted!
    Terri
    Terri Janas
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    ZNA Potomac
    MAKC

  5. #35
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Just wanted to wish you success in the future. We've all gone through a learning curve, and now it seems as though it's your turn.

    You are absolutely doing the best thing now for your fish and I commend you on your willingness to heal them, and improve their environment. When this is behind you and you've got a beautiful pond with a few healthy, thriving koi you will look back on this and share it with someone new that is going down the same path as yourself.


    Best wishes,

    Grant

  6. #36
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Grant is right.

    Did anyone contact you yet?

    Unless someone can help you in person, listen to Terri. She's awesome and knows what she's talking about.

  7. #37
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koiluv View Post
    I see you were given lots of great help today! I do hope you can find a KHA near you and I also think a vet should be brought in because you most likely will need antibiotic injections for the worst ones.
    I wanted to go over a couple things with you that you may or may not already know just to be safe. It is important for it to be as stress free as possible for the koi when you handle them for exams etc. Never lift them out of the water when you net them, they need to always be in water. If you need instructions on how to do this, let us know. If using new water, the water they go into needs to be well aerated for at least 3 hours, close in temperature and PH. Also keep a small air stone going in that tub as well. Stay in the shade. When scraping, go easy, no hard pressure is needed. I believe the rods you saw moving were flexobactor columnaris, it has a haystack appearance-long thin rod, which makes sense with the growth you see in the photos. If you watch the slide for around 15-20 minutes, you'd see them gather together again. This disease worsens and spreads rapidly in warm water, so better not to heat right now in any way. It also worsens in organic laden water, so your KHA will suggest you remove all rocks and plants esp. while treating. Parasites hide in these places and will reinfect. If you return these plants to the pond they will need to be disinfected using something like Potassium promanganate or a bleach solution. Same with any new plants for the rest of their lives.
    Laying over sideways can be many things but commonly it is a symptom of a PH swing. Can you check your PH morning, noon and at dark for one day for me to see if it changes? Plants also increase this swing. PH swings add to their stress hindering them from recovering once you start treatments so we need to get that under control.
    Do you use baking soda or CaCl to buffer or are your KH and GH natural?
    Also what is your salt level now?
    I'd also suggest purchasing medicated koi food and switch to that for 2 weeks.
    Your situation will be tricky to treat. The cottony areas will need to be scraped off gently and disinfected before the Pro Form C will work because Flex buries itself and hooks in the tissue. That's why you saw only temporary relief. They should be sedated when you do this.
    No more new Koi- quarantine any new fish before ever adding to your collection. A good book to purchase is Doc Johnson's Koi health and disease. I like it because it's easy for beginners to understand and has a lot of info on the microscope to help identify parasites.
    Lastly-what color were the gills of the one you pulled today? Pro Form could put them over the edge if they aren't healthy so you may not be able to do an in pond treatment. Sorry again for your troubles, your doing great, hang in there and keep us posted!
    Terri

    Thank you Terri. Your advice is invaluable as I just lost the nicest one when I moved it to quarantine. I was still very strong when I chased it but immediately after I moved it out of water and put in a separate tank with the same water, it went side way for a while then now about to die!! I never realized that I should not net it out of water, even when I was ever so gentle. Well, lesson learned. No wonder most of the fish die shortly after I remove them from the pond, even Kois with minimal signs of disease.

    Again, thank you all for your support. By the time this is over, all of my prized collection will be gone and just the not so nice ones are left. One thing I have noticed also is that the nicer the Kois, for some reasons they die sooner! Just my luck, I guess. The Koi that just died did,'t look so bad except for just a small ulcer wound. Picture attached for your viewing. I sent 2 emails for help to the peolple recommended by this thread but no answer yet. I had also called Nancy twice but all I got was her answering machine. May be this is fate.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sick Koi. Please help urgently-pics9.jpg  

  8. #38
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Hard lessons make a lasting impression, but they are not soon forgotten.
    Stress kills Koi much easier than a person might think, even if they "appear" otherwise in fair condition. That is why keeping them in water makes such a big difference as it removes one source of stress to their system during even a short transport to or from a hospital tank.
    Often when Koi have a few small issues going on that you can see on the surface there are also invisible (to the naked eye) problems going on inside that are weakening the fish as well. In a situation like that all it takes is one more thing to put them over the edge. Hopefully this experience will offer you the chance to learn some things that will prevent you from having to re-live anything like this in the future and I'm getting the impression that you are a fast and willing learner
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  9. #39
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Thanks for the compliment Sandy, you are pretty terrific yourself! It's tough to help when we aren't there and can't see things in person, but best to help as much as we can if the owner is willing and he seems motivated which is nice to see.
    Obman, There are more reasons why they passed shortly after catching them than lifting them out of water. Also there are reasons why the better ones seem to go first and you see barely any symptoms on some. All this is related to the condition of the gills. They can tell you more than the body does often and whether they have the capacity to heal themselves. Some probably came to you with gill damage. Columnaris being a secondary infection can also attack the gills and usually it is after some parasite like trich or flukes has damaged them leaving them inflamed and vulnerable. The gills supply the oxygen transfer to the body and then there is a chain of events. When over taxed by catching, increased blood pressure or gill damage too far gone, they can't survive. Basically they suffocate, systems shut down, very sad. It's pretty certain to me without being there, that there is damage.
    But the good news is, fish heal amazingly well in good water and have incredible capacity to heal, even gills can if not too damaged. Did you happen to take a look at the gills yesterday? If so can you describe them, color,were they uniform in shape? That can tell us a lot right there.
    One other thing, from the pond photos, it doesn't quite look like
    3,000 gal to me, but hard to tell from a photo. Did you meter in the water and was it after the rocks and plants were in there? Just wanted to check because it's important to know when dosing. These chems we use can burn gill tissue if overdosed and your still going to need to treat the survivors you have.
    Terri

  10. #40
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    David is a Doctor, and he has scraped and scooped the fish, he is 100% certain that it is columnaris. He has 50 koi in his 3500 gallon pond. He has a lava rock filter, which is not large enough for his pond size and fish population. He has excessive muck on the bottom of his pond, he did remove many of the rocks, which I am sure while he was removing them, released toxins in the water, which where under all those rocks.

    He will be buying a vac to clean the bottom of the pond, he undstands that he needs to get his water in pristine conditions. and that he is way over stocked in fish, and under filtered.


    Also, his QT tank is a 45 gallon rubbermade container, with no fitration or pump.. I think he now undertands that this is NOT a qt..

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