Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 162

Thread: sick Koi. Please help urgently

  1. #41
    Nisai obman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Southern Cali
    Posts
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by koiluv View Post
    Thanks for the compliment Sandy, you are pretty terrific yourself! It's tough to help when we aren't there and can't see things in person, but best to help as much as we can if the owner is willing and he seems motivated which is nice to see.
    Obman, There are more reasons why they passed shortly after catching them than lifting them out of water. Also there are reasons why the better ones seem to go first and you see barely any symptoms on some. All this is related to the condition of the gills. They can tell you more than the body does often and whether they have the capacity to heal themselves. Some probably came to you with gill damage. Columnaris being a secondary infection can also attack the gills and usually it is after some parasite like trich or flukes has damaged them leaving them inflamed and vulnerable. The gills supply the oxygen transfer to the body and then there is a chain of events. When over taxed by catching, increased blood pressure or gill damage too far gone, they can't survive. Basically they suffocate, systems shut down, very sad. It's pretty certain to me without being there, that there is damage.
    But the good news is, fish heal amazingly well in good water and have incredible capacity to heal, even gills can if not too damaged. Did you happen to take a look at the gills yesterday? If so can you describe them, color,were they uniform in shape? That can tell us a lot right there.
    One other thing, from the pond photos, it doesn't quite look like
    3,000 gal to me, but hard to tell from a photo. Did you meter in the water and was it after the rocks and plants were in there? Just wanted to check because it's important to know when dosing. These chems we use can burn gill tissue if overdosed and your still going to need to treat the survivors you have.
    Terri
    Terri,
    I whole-heartedly agree with everything you have said since the beginning of this thread. You are awesome . There are 2 fishes died. The gills don't look too bad, still light pink, minimal if any, white patches that I can see, no tearing, pictures attached although not that clear. 3 additional Kois got infected and have obvious ulcers and some cotton balls lesions. I leave them alone as I don't want them to die sooner than they have to. I have established the diagnosis of Ich intial infection and subsequent superinfection with Columnaris. The fishes that died were also induced by stress from me! I have also removed all Hyacints. I plan to remove all the rest of water plants and clear the pond tomorrow as I don't want to stress the Kois at this point. The pond was estimated by calculation, I did not meter the water. The calculation came out to be 3700 but I adjusted to 3000 gal. There is a tunnel from that pond to a much smaller pond to the left. I think that can be a breeding ground for parasite/bacteria and I may close it off permanently once I have a KHA look at it. In the mean time, what should I give the Kois to curb off the rampant Columnaris infection? Please give me some pointers. I have come to accept the fact that I am losing/have lost all the good breed ones.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sick Koi. Please help urgently-pics10.jpg  

  2. #42
    Nisai obman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Southern Cali
    Posts
    67
    Update:
    one of the 3 new sick ones just went belly up. Gill exam shows significant necrosis/ulceration (picture attached). Slide preparation from the gill is negative. Slide from the body ulceration shows numerous fast swimming rods organisms. I am certain that this is Flexibacter Columnaris. Now, If I can find some Tetracycline, Kanamycin, Maracyn, or even sulfa for fish. Anyone knows the sources?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails sick Koi. Please help urgently-pics11.jpg  

  3. #43
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    69
    Hi,
    The photo is blurry but I can tell you the color is not right. How long after death were these photos taken? That makes a difference. The color should be dark meat red almost the color of blood. The filaments look clubbed and or swollen together, not clear distinct filaments. Because of the uniformity meaning the same look, it almost looks like chemical damage as opposed to parasites. You may have overdosed the pro form or not using enough dechlor, so we do need to meter in the water or maybe the kha when there can take measurements and get a closer gallonage.

    Here's some questions to help me help you until help arrives.
    Did you ever use Potassium promanganate or any other chemical you can think of? (the place they came from may have used it as well)
    Is there chlorine in your tap water and what product do you use to treat it?
    What is your salt level?
    How long after death were the photos taken?
    Can you get a live Koi and without lifting them, get a quick peek at the gill color to see if they are pink too?
    Do you use baking soda or any GH hardener?
    What are your tap readings for KH and GH and PH and ammonia?
    We need to find out if there's a PH swing. Have you been checking PH throughout the day?
    That's all I can think of for now. Terri

    Edit OK the new photo gives me more to go on. That is definitely parasitic and the color is not good. Give me a minute to write another post and in the mean time answer some of those questions.
    Terri Janas
    Master Koi Health Advisor
    Member of
    ZNA Potomac
    MAKC

  4. #44
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    69
    Edit
    OK the new photo gives me more to go on. That is definitely parasitic and the color is not good. Give me a minute to write another post and in the mean time answer some of those questions if you can.

  5. #45
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    69
    This is tough.....The gill color is pale so that tells us he's not taking in enough oxygen, too much damage has been done. As I think on this the damage could have also been from cycling a new pond, the ammonia sky rockets the first 2 months and can cause this. If they all look like that one does, unfortunately, you may not be able to save anybody. They probably won't even survive the stress of catching them and giving them antibiotics. We can't add chems right now because that decreases the oxygen in the water and adds to the inflammation and would also put them over the edge. Here's what I would do as a last resort, I would take all the plants out and increase the salt level all the way up to .6%. That's pretty darn high but it would offer immediate help to them and kill off many parasites. It would need to be done in increments of .2% a day and you need to closely monitor the ammonia and make sure it stays at zero and it's covered with ammonia detox. If they start to feel better around .3%-.4% then stop there. Do you have a salt kit to do this? You want to go slow and monitor them as you go and judge by their behavior when to stop. If there's a club near by they may be able to lend you show tanks to put them in with the salt, but you need to keep a filter on it or use a product like Ultimate while they are in there. Needs heavy aeration too.
    Then I'd watch and wait to see if the gills start to heal and show a better color. If they do, then we can proceed differently. Your thoughts?Terri

  6. #46
    Nisai obman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Southern Cali
    Posts
    67
    Thank you, Terri, for your invaluable help.

    Did you ever use Potassium promanganate or any other chemical you can think of? NO
    Is there chlorine in your tap water and what product do you use to treat it? NO. I occasionally put a little "Organic Digester" made by Strata to "condition" the water.
    What is your salt level? I put in 30# of salt at the beginning of the Ich infection but had since diluted it out with many water changes. I have not and don't have the salt level tester.
    How long after death were the photos taken? 1 night except for the last photo when the Koi was still alive but his belly was up. I Euthenized the KOI to end the Suffocation.
    Can you get a live Koi and without lifting them, get a quick peek at the gill color to see if they are pink too? Picture posted fopr a live KOI's gill
    Do you use baking soda or any GH hardener? NO
    What are your tap readings for KH and GH and PH and ammonia? Right now: GH 120 KH 80 pH 6.5 NO2 0 No3 0
    We need to find out if there's a PH swing. Have you been checking PH throughout the day? Yes, they "were" stable at 7.0 until this AM when it is 6.5.

  7. #47
    Nisai obman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Southern Cali
    Posts
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by koiluv View Post
    This is tough.....The gill color is pale so that tells us he's not taking in enough oxygen, too much damage has been done. As I think on this the damage could have also been from cycling a new pond, the ammonia sky rockets the first 2 months and can cause this. If they all look like that one does, unfortunately, you may not be able to save anybody. They probably won't even survive the stress of catching them and giving them antibiotics. We can't add chems right now because that decreases the oxygen in the water and adds to the inflammation and would also put them over the edge. Here's what I would do as a last resort, I would take all the plants out and increase the salt level all the way up to .6%. That's pretty darn high but it would offer immediate help to them and kill off many parasites. It would need to be done in increments of .2% a day and you need to closely monitor the ammonia and make sure it stays at zero and it's covered with ammonia detox. If they start to feel better around .3%-.4% then stop there. Do you have a salt kit to do this? You want to go slow and monitor them as you go and judge by their behavior when to stop. If there's a club near by they may be able to lend you show tanks to put them in with the salt, but you need to keep a filter on it or use a product like Ultimate while they are in there. Needs heavy aeration too.
    Then I'd watch and wait to see if the gills start to heal and show a better color. If they do, then we can proceed differently. Your thoughts?Terri
    Any concern of residual Proform C in the pond with introducing salt back in? I am willing to sacrifice the lillies/lotus so adding salt is no problem. I would need to put Abx to treat the rampant nasty Columnaris. What do you think?

  8. #48
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    69
    We need to know the salt level, can you get a kit at the local pet store? Also buy some ammonia detox like Prime or Ultimate.
    When was the last dose? We need at least 3-4 days for it to inactivate. I'd like to see water changes, at least 25-30 % before new salt goes in. Salt will actually kill many parasites, esp at levels of .3 and higher and it will kill back some of the columnaris too. Let's do this for now. You can do a test run with a small one in your 45 gal tub with salt and see how he reacts to it. Keep ammonia binder in there and an air stone. You'd use 3 tsp. of salt per gallon of fresh water to start. Then if all goes well, you can re scrape to look for improvements.
    Next we need to work on your PH, you are getting a swing. .5 degrees in one day is too much and it could be higher. Are you using drop test kits or the test strips to get these numbers? Interesting that the GH is so low in the pond and high in the tap and KH is the same with a newly cycled pond. Buy drop test kits too if you don't already have those and lots of baking soda.
    Are you on well water?
    We really need a KHA or vet there, any luck so far? Terri

  9. #49
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Davenport, Oklahoma
    Posts
    6,726
    One other thing to interject here.
    Since you are performing heavier than usual water changes and your tap ph is on the low side (6.5) as measured it would be advisable to add the fresh water via heavily atomized spray. This will help to degas some CO2 which will help to reduce excessive ph swings during water changes. The kh/gh numbers from the tap are sufficient to indicate CO2 in the tap water may be driving the ph (6.5) down somewhat.

    Back to your normal programming

    BTW. Terri... YOU ROCK

  10. #50
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Louisiana - KHA
    Posts
    2,459
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you add ProForm while you had salt in the pond?

    Terri, I'm going to try to contact some KHA's in his area since no one has answered him.

    BTW, you can't get a feeling for the gill health after the koi is dead. Also, parasites usually "jump ship" once the fish dies so you are best served scraping a live fish.

Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Sick Koi
    By jmellon in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 06-15-2012, 01:01 PM
  2. What to do when you get sick of your koi?
    By aquitori in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-17-2012, 01:59 PM
  3. Help Sick KOI ?
    By DobbyKoi in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-06-2010, 01:08 AM
  4. sick koi
    By m4rt1n in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-26-2006, 02:03 PM
  5. Where do you go when your koi get sick?
    By Regenmeneer in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 02-28-2006, 08:02 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com