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Thread: sick Koi. Please help urgently

  1. #61
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Hi David,
    I have to agree with the others. I am not sure why he would recommend that. Earlier on I wondered if that had happened to them causing part of what I saw in the photo. Had he seen the photo's? It easy to overdose PP and if under dosed, won't do a thing. PP also extracts oxygen from the water and they wouldn't handle that right now. I also have a call out for a fish vet that makes house calls, I should hear shortly.
    For now can you try putting one small koi in a high salt bath like mentioned to see how they do? Even for 1-2 hours would tell us something. You'd notice pretty quickly if they felt better. Needs a strong air stone and I would aerate the salted water first for about an hour before you place them in. Go ahead and have the salt at .6% (6 tsp. per gallon) When you catch him in the net, don't lift him, scoop under him with a bowl, then put him into the waiting tub, water and all and consider the added water, you may need a tsp. more salt. Can we try this? Terri
    Terri Janas
    Master Koi Health Advisor
    Member of
    ZNA Potomac
    MAKC

  2. #62
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    David I found a traveling fish vet in the valley and am told he's very good. I will PM you with the number. Terri

  3. #63
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    The PP advise confuses the heck out of me too. With fish under that kind of stress already the only possible reasoning I can see would be the fear of hidden pathogens among the rocks, but most of them have already been removed and the few that remain appear to be around the fringes and the ones weighting down the air line.

    IF, and only if there is reason to believe the remaining rocks are harboring pathogens that are adding to the problem I might go purchase a case of Hydrogen Peroxide and pour it directly around the perimeter and directly above the stones holding the airline down. Even at the weak over the counter 3% solution it will oxidize trapped mulm and instead of depleting O2 levels it will release O2 into the water column as it goes off.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  4. #64
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Until the parasites and/or ulcers outway what the fish can handle, they can survive. I have seen many make it back that most would give up on even in water not so great. Although the more gill damage, the harder. I don't worry so much about the mulm now. I would worry about ammonia though but luckily we aren't dealing with that. The pro-form has knocked the bacteria count back in the water. These parasites multiply very fast in warm temps. It just gets worse when they have breached the skin and bacteria enters leading to sepsis. The parasites think the Koi is dying and are going gangbusters on the fish, not the rocks. I feel the best we can do now is to sustain them osmotically with salt. Salt also relieves stress, knocks back the bacteria, parasites and aids in healing. If we can get that started then there are many other things we can do if we see some relief and gill color return. I mentioned to Kntry tri-cide dips as one method, but they couldn't handle that at this moment. Tri-cide has ABX in it as well as bacterialcide. I have had good results with it. If one Koi does well with the salt then I'd put it all in the pond and wait a couple days. If improved we can easily start treating. We just need to know they can handle the handling. IF we can do that, cut the bacteria and parasite numbers way back with the salt, support them, they have a chance to heal. These are my thoughts, please chime in if others have ideas. Terri

  5. #65
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Terri, that sounds like a great plan. The fish are in too bad a shape right now to try much because of their gills.

    I've also seen fish recover that most would give up on. My Shiro that pineconed is one although he's not out of the woods totally. Koi are very resilient and miracle healers if given 1/2 a chance.

  6. #66
    Nisai
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    I am very new to raising KOI (BUT) I have went threw prolly the same thing. My Neighbor had a pond built this past summer. the crew who built the pond put all her fish in a small tub and the next day like 15 were dead I tested the water very high amonia. as soon as her new pond was done they brought her around 20 new fish and almost immeditatly they started dying and showed the cotton wool symtoms. I ask my local dealer what to do and he said the same thing. I brought the pond to .6% salt for 1 1/2 weeks then started changing out the water saved alot of fish. wish I would have known some of what has been writen here then cause the fish that showed the cotton wool I netted and carried to QT tank only to have them die soon after.
    you guys and gals are doing a good thing by sharing your knoledge with us newbies

    Thank you for that
    Rod

  7. #67
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    Again, thank you all for sharing the great knowledge/experience. It has not been a very productive day for me. I purchased a Shop-Vac which should be here Tuesday. I bought 2 lbs of Potassium Permanganate but held off from what I had gathered here. I also got one additional external centrifuge filter tank coming to reduce the load on the water fall. I plan to remove another load of rocks and bring air lines to certain still water area in the small connection pond. I will try the salt bath tomorrow and see how one fish react. The whole gang appears more happy today which I assume due to the massive water change and less chasing them around by me. Sometimes hands off can be good for their recovery. I noticed a few more have very small whitish patch on their body but they seem to be swimming around OK with the exception of 2 that stayed at the bottom and clamped fin. I will try those first with the salt bath. I brought the water to the local shop and the salt level was 0.08.

  8. #68
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Just a quick reminder...

    Not all salt is created equal. One safe salt I've found at home depot is Morgans Solar Salt. Blue bag. Morgan also has some types that aren't recommended for fish. Some have additives for their water softening duties....

    Anyway, sounds like you're doing good, and some amazing help you've gotten so far.

    Couldn't agree more about the PP. Hopefully when you're done here you'll only need PP for sterilizing stuff, and never to put in with your fish.

    Best wishes.

    Grant

  9. #69
    Nisai obman's Avatar
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    I went ahead and tested the water at night since there is so much foam today that almost covers the whole pond. Using test strips from "pond care", I got: GH 180 KH 240 pH 8.0 NO2 and NO3 all 0's. I noticed I have rocks on the water fall that has whitish hard crystal possibly lime stone. Could it be buffering thus giving me super high GH/KH values? Anyhow, still doing another water change as the Kois seem more happy today and actually ate! I will clean the biofilter tomorrow (with pond water) to see if I can get rid of the bad residuals.

  10. #70
    Nisai koiluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obman View Post
    I went ahead and tested the water at night since there is so much foam today that almost covers the whole pond. Using test strips from "pond care", I got: GH 180 KH 240 pH 8.0 NO2 and NO3 all 0's. I noticed I have rocks on the water fall that has whitish hard crystal possibly lime stone. Could it be buffering thus giving me super high GH/KH values? Anyhow, still doing another water change as the Kois seem more happy today and actually ate! I will clean the biofilter tomorrow (with pond water) to see if I can get rid of the bad residuals.
    That's all good news!
    Eating is a very good sign. Clean the filter gently tomorrow, it's still considered a pretty virgin filter. The rocks are actually carrying much of your biofilm, so eventually when you remove them you will need to keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrites, they may go up so I'd think about removing them an area at a time possibly or after the new filter kicks in. They can't handle any ammonia right now, so I'd suggest having ammonia detox on hand like 1 gal of Ultimate or Prime when you remove the rocks just in case. The foam- I'd just scoop out with a bucket what you can. Your right about the white crystals. Those numbers today make sense for a PH of 8 and actually will give you with a stable PH. So between all the new water and the PH being stable they feel better. I'd love for those numbers today to stay there. Do you have lime stone rocks? Good luck tomorrow, I really hope it goes well. Use pond water when you do this so they don't have another adjustment to make. Also-Maybe pull a happy guy and not one on the bottom. Up to you of course. Terri

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