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Thread: Masaki Kumonryu

  1. #11
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    More of a Matsukawabake fan

    than Kumonryu, tho I did breed a Reserve GC for a small local koi Show,

    In Kumonryu development, I have found that there are two ways they change. You purchase Tosai that are mostly white and wait for the pattern, or purchase all black with just a white forehead and a little white up into the shoulder. I find the latter to be more stable especially if female. Most of my females that started as white changed a season or two and then stayed white with sexual maturity.

    This season I have been working with 3 matsukawabakes. It's hard to put into words how different they act then the rest of my gosanke's. To a cat lover these are akin to Siamese, who listen to different voices.

    The first two koi I purchased back 35 years ago were matsukawabakes and for some reason I have not been able to get over them.

    The first pic is of my Gin Rin, which makes for an elegant looking Wagoi....and the second is one i picked up at aka nisei and 9 inches and is something I wanted to watch grow up.

    I do understand your love of the crow family....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Masaki Kumonryu-gr-matsu.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-img_1051.jpg  
    Dick Benbow

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    Dick, what is the meaning of the word 'Kumonryu'? JR

  3. #13
    Daihonmei
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    JR,
    You are going where I have been, with Dick. I am sure you will do it more eloquently.

  4. #14
    Tosai
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    Exlaining Kumonryu

    However my name isn't Dick, perhaps I can be of assistance in the explanation of the word Kumonryu. The text down below is just a little piece of an article I wrote and was published in the KoiWijzer, a Dutch Koi Magazine. I tried to translate it as good as possible. I Hope you enjoy.

    Perhaps the most popular offspring of the Kawarimono class, we meet with a doitsugoi in this division. The Kumonryu is a Koi with a pitch-black design which arises as some dark clouds at a bright white sky. This variety is sometimes called the name ‘orka’ because of the similar ensemble between black and white. The sumi-design is always unique and expresses itself ideally at the lateral (side) patterning on the body of this contrasting non scaled fish, but also be revealed in other ways. The pattern is meta-stable, which implies that, as the MatsukawaBake, the pattern will remain unchanged in a situation where no disturbances occur. Unfortunately, that’s an utopia in our climate and the limited capacity of the closed biotopes we keep. The pattern sometimes turns back the same way, but can also reappear in a completely new design or not at all.


    Motoguro is a hallmark liked on this Koi, but its absence is not a shocking error. The popularity these Nishikigoi are subject to, is not only due to the sharp contrast it bears with itself. This Koi is subject to a very rich symbolic
    value, making it also to the Japanese hobbyists very popular. There’s a myth in which a carp, after curbing the Dragon Gate Falls, transforms to a white dragon, which then takes it against a black specimen with bad intentions, holding both Japan and China underneath it’s wrath. The playful fight between these two extreme colours, which is seen on the body of a Kumonryu, is kept symbol of this myth, which result led that the carp became sacred for both China and Japan. The word ryu means dragon.


    A further translation of the Kumonryu gives us some
    interpretations, all with an equally intriguing meaning
    I do not want to withhold to you. The most obvious translation is ‘Heavens Gate’ (ku = heaven mon = gate), referring to the outward appearance of the Kumonryu on which the sumi pattern is a passage against a white sky and referring to
    the Dragon (ryu) Gate Falls, which is so high that it seems like it reaches into the sky.


    But there is a second possible translation of Kumonryu.
    Besides the previously mentioned meanings, 'ku' can
    also stand for the number 'nine' and 'mon' can also be explained as 'symbol'. This translation, indicating nine symbols, covers a second myth that speaks to our imaginary on a similarly way. There are stories about the Suikoden, with a samurai vocation like Robin Hood,
    originative from the most
    impoverished areas, which plundered the estates of the very rich overnight.


    The Suikoden find its origin in China, but they were embraced by the Japanese as populist heroes and included in Japanese mythology. Shi Jin, once a rich farmer, who was captured by some of the 108 rebels while protecting its soil. Shi Jin was so touched by their story about the oppression that he set his house fire and left his wealth to join the Suikoden. He was one of the bravest among the Suikoden. He was recognized by his tattoos of nine dragons that covered his entire back
    These tattoos are called irezumi and protect the owner for evil. The nickname which this courageous hero of the people lived by, was Kumonryu! However this myth and its
    hero, aren’t related directly to the Koi going by the same name, it’s likeness is most certain partly responsible for the enormous popularity the Kumonryu enjoys.



    Kindest regards,

    Tiebo Jacobs

  5. #15
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing your article, Tiebo -- I enjoyed reading it.

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    Thanks Tiebo. In the USA, when we were children, we would play a game called 'the whisper game'. In this game, children would sit or stand in a line. The first child would be given a message such as " The bear climbed the steep purple mountain" and he or she would whisper the phrase in the next child's ear. That child would do the same with the next child and so forth and so on, until the last child in the row got the phase. Then that child would say out loud want he or she had heard. Often the 15th child would say something like " The hare climbed the steps and out again"!

    I often think of this game played so many years ago now, when I hear western explanations as to how koi got their name.

    Usually the best place to get the facts is from the individuals that coined the name. And although there is a grain of truth to both versions, the original name was stickly about the effect of sumi to scales. The closer myth is the dragon ascending to the sky. Or to rain clouds surrounding the dragon. This vision of scales to skin and UNEVEN sumi pattern was, and is, key in Kumonryu.
    And more importantly, it is key to know that kumonryu represents the fourth refinement in the battle between atavistic gene ( reversion to the wild pattern) and the white spreading gene that is common in all karasugoi. Matsubawabake would be the third wagoi karasuigoi or the fifth in the line if you include doitsu.
    So the progression is -- nezu ogon ( doitsu) to karasugoi ( all black wagoi with white belly) to Hajiro ( white fins/ tips of white on fins)- to Hageshiro ( white fins and white bald head)/ Yotsushiro --to Kumonryu. Please note that this is in the progression of the recessive white spreading gene and not the crosses.

    The 'Orca' fish is a recent impression brought on by a famous fish that won in the ZNA All Japan several years ago now. That was a wrapped patterned fish and now confused with fish that are a mix of lateral doitsu pattern orientation and a more crude Hageshiro pattern in a doitsu fish.
    And so the meaning of the name is slowly being lost.

    Here is a real Kumonryu.

  7. #17
    Fry
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiebo Jacobs View Post
    However my name isn't Dick, perhaps I can be of assistance in the explanation of the word Kumonryu. The text down below is just a little piece of an article I wrote and was published in the KoiWijzer, a Dutch Koi Magazine. I tried to translate it as good as possible. I Hope you enjoy.

    Perhaps the most popular offspring of the Kawarimono class, we meet with a doitsugoi in this division. The Kumonryu is a Koi with a pitch-black design which arises as some dark clouds at a bright white sky. This variety is sometimes called the name ‘orka’ because of the similar ensemble between black and white. The sumi-design is always unique and expresses itself ideally at the lateral (side) patterning on the body of this contrasting non scaled fish, but also be revealed in other ways. The pattern is meta-stable, which implies that, as the MatsukawaBake, the pattern will remain unchanged in a situation where no disturbances occur. Unfortunately, that’s an utopia in our climate and the limited capacity of the closed biotopes we keep. The pattern sometimes turns back the same way, but can also reappear in a completely new design or not at all.


    Motoguro is a hallmark liked on this Koi, but its absence is not a shocking error. The popularity these Nishikigoi are subject to, is not only due to the sharp contrast it bears with itself. This Koi is subject to a very rich symbolic
    value, making it also to the Japanese hobbyists very popular. There’s a myth in which a carp, after curbing the Dragon Gate Falls, transforms to a white dragon, which then takes it against a black specimen with bad intentions, holding both Japan and China underneath it’s wrath. The playful fight between these two extreme colours, which is seen on the body of a Kumonryu, is kept symbol of this myth, which result led that the carp became sacred for both China and Japan. The word ryu means dragon.

    A further translation of the Kumonryu gives us some
    interpretations, all with an equally intriguing meaning
    I do not want to withhold to you. The most obvious translation is ‘Heavens Gate’ (ku = heaven mon = gate), referring to the outward appearance of the Kumonryu on which the sumi pattern is a passage against a white sky and referring to
    the Dragon (ryu) Gate Falls, which is so high that it seems like it reaches into the sky.

    But there is a second possible translation of Kumonryu.
    Besides the previously mentioned meanings, 'ku' can
    also stand for the number 'nine' and 'mon' can also be explained as 'symbol'. This translation, indicating nine symbols, covers a second myth that speaks to our imaginary on a similarly way. There are stories about the Suikoden, with a samurai vocation like Robin Hood, originative from the most
    impoverished areas, which plundered the estates of the very rich overnight.

    The Suikoden find its origin in China, but they were embraced by the Japanese as populist heroes and included in Japanese mythology. Shi Jin, once a rich farmer, who was captured by some of the 108 rebels while protecting its soil. Shi Jin was so touched by their story about the oppression that he set his house fire and left his wealth to join the Suikoden. He was one of the bravest among the Suikoden. He was recognized by his tattoos of nine dragons that covered his entire back
    These tattoos are called irezumi and protect the owner for evil. The nickname which this courageous hero of the people lived by, was Kumonryu! However this myth and its
    hero, aren’t related directly to the Koi going by the same name, it’s likeness is most certain partly responsible for the enormous popularity the Kumonryu enjoys.


    Kindest regards,

    Tiebo Jacobs

    Thank you very much for your teachings tiebo.

    Regards, Wiggy

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
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    To further illustrate my point. This is a fish that created the idea that a karasugoi could look like an 'Orca' just a few years back. This fish was called a Kumonryu because it is doitsu and it is black and white. It receives that name by default however, as the mixed genetics of all the doitsu versions of the other karasu clan don't have names! But there are doitsu hajiro, doitsu hageshiro, doitsu yotsushiro/yotsujiro and so forth. And there are doitsu Matsukawabake, which have come to be known as 'modern' kumonryu.
    So many degrees of karasugoi were crossed with shusui. And this becomes a battle between TWO of the four known pattern traits. Only a select few offspring will receive the lateral pattern orientation of Doitsu from shusui and the right influence of karasugoi's battle between the white spreading gene and the atavistic gene for reversion back to a solid Karasugoi. When the mix is right, you have a true Kumonryu ( the dragon in the rain clouds). All the rest are typically doitsu versions of Karasu wagoi. Or in the case of the one unique 'orca' specimen, a mix of two karasugoi traits in a doitsu fish. - JR

  9. #19
    Daihonmei
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    This same problem of factual historial standards clashing with marketing efforts and needs, is seen in these two fish as well - the orange Hariwake and the Kikusui. - JR

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    other one---

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