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Thread: Masaki Kumonryu

  1. #21
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Only a select few offspring will receive the lateral pattern orientation of Doitsu from shusui and the right influence of karasugoi's battle between the white spreading gene and the atavistic gene for reversion back to a solid Karasugoi. When the mix is right, you have a true Kumonryu ( the dragon in the rain clouds). All the rest are typically doitsu versions of Karasu wagoi.
    And that's the difference between telling a story and teaching a lesson.

    Thanks, JR.

    PS: Here's a two panel woodblock print (by Hokusai, 1835) showing a dragon climbing heavenward amongst the clouds around Fuji.

  2. #22
    Tosai
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    Kumonryu

    Dear all,

    @JR: Some games never get old, and aren't bound to borders or cultures. I have played that game in times I never did hear of Koi, I have seen children in Afghanstan play that game and now, my own daugther, almost four, is about to play it . The way the game works is cliché maybe, but something doesn't get cliché when it isn't true, so I can understand how you feel about the stories and myths. But it certainly speaks to the imagination, making the mystic of Koi still present. I think it's part of the culture, but I also got the drive to thoroughly find the anwers, for sharing knowledge is my vision and is why I am here.

    Now we've got the discussion going, which I profoundly like, I might as well try to explain what I know about the Kumonryu and it;s avatism that JR already mentioned. I must say, with the time passing by, I'm getting less concetrated wich might affect my abbility to translate my text into English, Sorry for those errors, when there are questions I am glad to answer them wherever I can. When my story is a load of crap in your oppinion, please feel welcome to discuss, Í'm here to learn.


    In the history of Nishikigoi and the
    career of the Karasu, we’re still missing an important milestone for a full and clear understanding of the herd of
    Crows with beard threads. The Second World War
    also had a major impact on the Japanese aquaculture, because a shortage of staff and goods originated. The relatively attractive Koi, the most colorful varieties were preserved.
    The development of the Karasu faded and was even almost forgotten.

    It was in the Late sixties at the Yamagata Prefectural Inland Water Fisheries Experiment Station, well before the development of the Kumonryu, that a male Shusui was crossed Nezu ogon, so the bloodlines of the Nezu Ogon could be investigated. Amongst the fry that hatched were also wagoi scaled) Karasugoi. Of course the Japanese Breeders were already familiar with Karasugoi-bloodlines which sprang from the Magoi long before the blood of the doitsugoi was introduced. The striking thing of these Karasu was that a more intense black pigment then was known until then. How is this possible? The Nezu Ogon developed from Asagi Magoi-line
    and is related to the Konjo Asagi. These Konjo Asagi had a more intensive dark pigmentation than its ancestor, the Magoi, which to popular misconception never were truly black, but rather very dark brownish (Tetsu Magoi) or bluish(Asagi Magoi). This throwback to a 'primitive' genetic characteristic that was culled away through time, but which was still stored in the genes of the DNA (atavism), brought a real black Karasu developed from the parents of Shusui and Nezu Ogon

    Where Karasus original bloodlines were seriously diluted, this was seen as a blessing in an accident. The coincidently
    created new Karasu were divided amongst the breeders in the Niigata, who recorded these Koi in their breeding-programs, from which almost all crow family members as we known them today originated.

    Now that we know that modern Karasugoi descend
    from Shusui and Nezu Ogon and that they genetically lie
    further from the original Magoi than people mostly think, some characteristics can be better explained. In exchange for the deeper black, the Koi had to hand in of its growth potential.
    The Shusui blood explains why we can find most karasugoi, and
    certainly the more intense darker specimens,
    having a red belly. (not to be mistaken with beni kumonryu) The Masaki kumonryu initiating this topic also had got a red belly.

    You could say that the Kumonryu is analogous to the Matsukawabake as Shusui is to Asagi. It is therefore most likely that this fascinating Koi, would be a product of a Shusui and Matsukawabake. But as we all have read
    Doitsublood was brought into the karasu, after the Second World War through atavism.
    From here, the first Kumonryu were developed by crossing
    these Karasugoi with Shusui. The first Kumonryu therefore, was three-quarters of Shusui! This explains the traditional lateral pattern that we like so much on a Kumonryu. Because the fish of the experiment were distributed among the breeders in Niigata, it is impossible to identify who grew the
    first Kumonryu and therefore developed it, because it was simply created in several places simultaneously. Crossing
    the Shusui with MatsukawaBake is therefore a little to easy to think and will not occur (anymore).
    Now the lines are more stabilized, this' dragon ' will often be produced from parents of
    Doitsu Yotsushiro, Matsukawabake and Kumonryu itself? I am not for sure about theu crossbreeding that are moslty used now. Maybe JR or Dick can help out here. I think these crosse are used, because they will probably give the most
    actually Kumonryu-offspring. The Kumonryu brings together the Tetsu Magoi-bloodline and two different bloodlines from Asagi Magoi and is therefore quite special! In fact, any combination of a doitsu from the Tetsu Karasulijn (Hajiro, HageShiro, Yotsushiro) with a variant of the Asagi Karasulijn (Suminagashi, Matsukawabake) will create Kumonryu. You just have to be lucky like JR says that the right chemistry will happen! Logically, there it is also possible to breed young ‘orka’, with just Kumonryu parents, but within this crossing there lies the great danger weather inheritance property, the sumi, will double which will eventually lead to completely black Koi. With only Kumonryu oyagoi, you further close in on the mutated genes of the so called acro-melanism, which will bring very unstable kumonryu. When you like I can explain acro-melanism, responsible for the kumonryu and matsukawabake to change patterning.


    So not all Doitsu Karasugoi are Kumonryu. This is
    a breeding ground for misunderstanding and possibly abuse.
    Indeed, it occurs more than once that Koi are being offered as they should be Kumonryu, where we actually
    are dealing with 'ordinary' doitsu specimen of
    the Hajiro, Hage Shiro or Yotsushiro. The Kumonryu
    has a white head and white tail and clean
    pectoral fins with rather motoguro. A traditional
    Kumonryu has black lateral patterns. The modern
    Kumonryu knows all abstract patterning of wavy lines.
    With this knowledge in your pocket you will understand that good and certainly more stable Kumonryu are extremely costly.

    After reading JR's post with the Orca Kumonryu and looking at myself, being ready to change my perception (= learning) I most say that I now appreciate the traditional Kumonryu more than before. But I do appreciate the orca's or more abstract versions. I think this can be kumonryu to and do not see them in the same way as I see doitsu hageshiro, hajiro, or yotsushiro. I compare the abstract 'new'kumonryu in the way we relate shusui and hana shusui or asagi and kanoko asagi.

    The larger specimen reaches far beyond the wallet capability of the ordinary hobbyists.
    Actually they almost never leave Japan. They are mainly because of their symbolism, also very popular among
    Indigenous . Breeders will never put young good Kumonryu
    for sale, because this Koi reaches his full beauty after they age of 3 or 4 revealing their real value at the lengt that goes with it.

    If you have the opportunity to select young Kumonryu, pay attention to the construction of the fish, but also on the pattern. The best kumonryu have got their shiro as clear as possible. Most are bluish, which in later life will become cream, but the best and stable copies are already at a young age, bright and sharply defined. There are many growers who breed these imaginative variety, including Fukusawa, Hirasawa, Ishihara, Miyashi, Koshugi and Conias.


    Hoping you don't get bored reading, with kindest regards.

    Tiebo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-1.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-2.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-4.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-koihagshr.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-yots.jpg  

    Masaki Kumonryu-post-40-1200881970_thumb.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-post-155-1197657732.jpg  

  3. #23
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Thanks for sharing your article, Tiebo -- I enjoyed reading it.
    You and Wigoh
    believe as soon as you read it....
    At least you can unlearn it when you want to...
    I wonder how Dick and Tiebo and wigoh are going to post/react?

  4. #24
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    You and Wigoh
    believe as soon as you read it....
    At least you can unlearn it when you want to...
    I wonder how Dick and Tiebo and wigoh are going to post/react?
    Please don't put words in my mouth, Luke.

    I politely thanked Tiebo for sharing his interesting stories with us.

    FYI there's no learning or unlearning involved, so . . .

  5. #25
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Interesting pattern change on this doitsu hariwake. Do you know the age of the fish as of each photo?

  6. #26
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Please don't put words in my mouth, Luke.

    I politely thanked Tiebo for sharing his interesting stories with us.

    FYI there's no learning or unlearning involved, so . . .
    really?
    well at least I gave you some credit for learning!

  7. #27
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    sorry, the thread got ahead of me. have been in class with sensei michael hagedorn for bonsai. We worked on Kuro matsu all day......

    My understanding always was that Kumonryu was ascending dragon....here in the pacific northwest we have plenty of Orca's, I used to run into them while salmon fishing in Elliott Bay. They'd drift by my tiny 14 footer with yellow jaundiced eye staring at me out of the water as the lead male was escorting his pod. Really spooky....

  8. #28
    Daihonmei
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    Well, we really have a good thread going here! Tiebo, I think we are getting closer and closer to seeing this all in one light.

    I've often heard others say that ALL modern koi are from breedings starting AFTER world war II. The reason being that few fish survived the demands and needs that accompanied the war. So with numbers gone, nishikigoi had to be recreated.
    But mounting numbers is NOT the same thing as reinventing the gene pool. As long as some individuals survive, the genetic roulette wheel of the previous decades is within reach as it is held within the survivors. And since koi do not breed true, the entire collideascope lies within the spawns in subsequent line breeding of those offspring. Black base or white base, solid pattern, lateral pattern, dorsal pattern or wrapped pattern.

    Now two things are true about koi genetics.1) once you have isolated a gene pool from the wild population, it can never ever be the same as the wild gene pool again. And 2) once the individual carries the compound recessive mutation genes within, you can never loose those recessive genes.
    So I agree that all koi come from a wild gene pool and are made up of three distinct races of magoi. And further, that the most successful gene pool was the asagi magoi that lead to the asagi and then the goshiki. From here we get 80% of all koi breeds.
    I guess I'm agreeing with you post ( I recognize the information from Rinko 1998, a ZNA publication at the time and I'm a serious member of the ZNA) that there is a pre-war karasu goi and then a re-engineered post war Karasu. But only in one sense-
    Really, the 'heavy lifting' was done pre war and the second appearence of the same genes was accomplished with the Nezu ogon experimentation and the subsequent turning over of that ( all black) stock to the local fish farmers after the war. In that case, the black koi was not a magoi. But a black koi and that remained true. This then could, as you suggested, be separated out genetically by a'white belly' or a 'brassy orange belly'. The more valuable fish for genetic purposes being the fish with the white belly ( a more evolved example of the white spreading gene and less asagi).

    I'd like to finish by saying, words have meaning and the name 'Kumonryu' meant something specific. And that meaning has been blurred by our acceptance of all Doitsu karasugoi clan members as 'kumonryu'. Some thing may be gained in modern times, but certainly something is also lost.

    Best, JR

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