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Thread: Masaki Kumonryu

  1. #1
    Tosai
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    Masaki Kumonryu

    This Koi is my latest purchase. On the second day of christmass I visited a dealer that had been to japan last october and managed to lay his hand on two kumonryu. Whilst one dragonfish was already sold, this one was still available, but the better fish in my eyes. In Holland you don't come across Kumonryu that often and when you do, you pay for them for sure. With this Kumonryu I took my chances. Why? Well Why do you think? Or do you think this Koi will grow out to be something we won't like at all?

    The Kumonryu is about 24 cm with an age of 7 months. It's breeder is Masaki.

    kindest regards,

    Tiebo Jacobs
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-24-cm.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-24-cm-2-.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-24-cm-3-.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-24-cm-4-.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-24-cm-5-.jpg  


  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Certainly gives the impression of being a tosai that grew faster than it could put on weight. Head proportion is good for tosai. If female, it will be growing well... with warm water and proper feeding.

    I do not care for kumonryu, so I'll not comment further.

  3. #3
    Tategoi Lomaponder's Avatar
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    The every changing koi...

    I mostly in agreement with mr. mike on this fish. My understanding with kumonryu (explained to me by a AKCA judge) is you are looking for "Shamu" when choosing a Kumonryu (nice pattern). I believe you are on the right track in this regard.

    I do not believe, however, that this is a female. The pec fins (though this isn't an absolute indicator) seem a little "pointy"; which would steer me towards a male. But only time will tell this mystery. Then again, maybe "she is not fanning out those pecs for all to see.


  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    I get fish when I don't see anything that is gonna trouble me later on.
    I like the body on this one, I can't guess gender.
    I don't like Kumonryus that have more than a spot of black on them when they are under a year old and am thoroughly content to keep a kumonryu that is totally white for as long as it takes.
    From all the Kumonryu I get to see, I see them get more and more sumi each year.

  5. #5
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Very pretty but when buying small Kumonryu you would look for one that is milky white with little/no sumi showing yet. Since you don't get a large selection, I understand why you decided to take a chance.

  6. #6
    Tosai
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    Kumonryu

    Dear sharers of knowledge,

    First of all I want to wish you all a very healthy 2009 to you and your Koi.
    In Holland we say 'Beste Wensen' or 'Gelukkig Nieuwjaar'

    I will now try to explain to you why I took my chances with this Kumonryu.
    It is not likely to be said that I chose to bought it because I had that a small collection to make myself a proud owner of a Kumonryu. Although it was part of my consideration it is not my nature to by Koi just to have the Koi. No, I sat and looked at the bowl for quite some time. I asked to bowl the allready sold Kumonryu together withe it, so I could at least make a comparisation.

    This is a tip I want to give to you all. Although you are interested by just one Koi. Always ask to bowl one, two or three others with it, so you don't stare blind on the one appealling to you that much. This way you can always compare body, bonestructure, head, ozutsu, finns and more. This will give you a more complete and honest view of the Koi you most likely want to purchase. In fact, you're skills of buying Koi will drastically improve when you just ask you're dealer to bowl a few fish once in a while to make a comparisation and making discussion about it, so you can build a reference for yourself. A nice way to bring practise to the things you learn on a forum.

    So the Masaki Kumonryu were bowld for me to compare and there were a few differences between these fishes. It immediately became clear why the other one was already sold. Although this Kumonryu was a few centimeters shorter, it had the better body by far and also an large haiku right behind it's head. It had a whole lot of black allready and it had a less pointy nose. The white skinn was more blueish and the pectoral and tailfinns where no where near the length of the one I bought.

    In my considiration a Kumonryu needs to have as white a skinn as possible during childhood (first 3 years) and very little sumi. The sumi will appear more present when aging, at least in the more hardened water of the Netherlands. The whiter the skinn at a young age, the whiter it will be later. The more blueish white will also become creamy white, but will never reach the quality of the more brighter offspring. My Kumonryu not only had a whiter skinn, it also had less sumi. So two things I think are important selecting young Kumonryu.

    The nose is a little pointy and that is the concern I have with my Kumonryu. Will it become a larger vexation when the Koi grows out 50+cm?

    The Body is nothing to be worried about I think. This Koi measures 24 cm at 7 months of age being a Kumonryu, that isn't bad at all I think. She (or he) had been selected in early October where it wasn't fed for 4 weeks before transhipping to Holland and it became quaranteened for another 4 weeks when it had reached it's destination. It bothered me though but when I took a better look at the pectoral- and tailfinn I became wedded to this Koi. They are absolutely stunning in size and proportion. I had to look twice because the ends of the finns where that transparant that I could'nt see the full lengt of them. This indicates to me that the Koi has enough potential to grow ouw becoming an Orka.

    In my considiration I did had one handicap. I do'n have any experiece with Masaki. I also could't find any multiannual Kumonryu form masaki on the Web. When you do have them, I would be very thankfull when you'd share that knowledge.

    To conclusion I must say that this is definetly not tategoi by any means. I do have to say that this purchase will become a diamond by time when it comes to understanding Nishikigoi. It is not hard to buy a beautifull Kumonryu exceeding 50 cm (when you do have the cashflow). But buying young Kumonryu, who are well known for their volatility, will pay of when you just take a closer look during their development, making (more) sure that you won't make a big mistake when buying a Kumonryu later on that does dearly cost you.

    Kindest regards,

    Tiebo Jacobs

    p.s.

    I have recently written an article about the Karasu-Clan involving the Karasu, Hagiro, Hageshiro, Yotsushiro, (Beni) Kumonryu, Sumi Nagashi, Matsukawabake and the Benikoki. It was published in the 'Koiwijzer' the magazine of the Koi2000, a Dutch Koi Society. I am an editor of this magazine. In this article not just the varieties and their history are explained. I also try to explain why the Kumonry and the Matsukawabake can actually change collors and the avatisme which I also found on this forum. Maybe it is something for your magazine as well, but that would mean I need a contact. I can translate a whole lot of it, but ofcourse and so you will notice in my replies, I don't write or speak American on a dayly basis. When you wish to include the article in your magazine, just contact me [email protected] and maybe we can share some knowledge.

  7. #7
    Tosai
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    Update masaki kumonryu

    hello there,

    The Kumonryu I bought at cristmass last year has won first price in his category at the Dutch Koi & Pond days 2009. It is not the fish I bought anymore. in relatively a short time the fish increades black drasticly and also the body is good. Most remarkable I think is the shape of the head. Just compare it withe the pic just after buying it... What are you're comments on it? This pictures are 2 months old and meanwhile the sumi has increased in the shoulder area. Will the sumi further increase or will the kumonryu stabilize in this proportion?

    greetings,

    Tiebo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-26-cm-6-.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-26-cm-4-.jpg   Masaki Kumonryu-kumonryu-masaki-26-cm-2-.jpg  

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    Unfortunately, koi , on a genetic level, are made up of color expression and pattern expression. And the best examples of a breed standard combine pattern and color together in perfect harmony.

    In addition to that fact, there is the reality that many varieties ( the ones you listed in a previous post, actually) are transitional varieties that rarely carry their look into maturity.
    This is one reason why it is disturbing to hear westerners and western dealers under a misteaching Japanese breeder ( for marketing purposes) comparing various breeds to the standards and elements present in Gosanke.

    This fish 'was' a real Kumonryu when you bought. It had the classic characteristics and standard of a true kumonryu ( which is kawari/karsui goi from the doitsu/shusui breedings).
    Today the smaller farmers are crossing doitsu and karasu clan like made. And the finished product is called "kumonryu" or "beni Kumonryu or any of the metallic variations of same.
    But if you focus on my first paragraph, you will see the problem-- these many fishes have the general black and white doitsu look, but they are not holding the genetic code for kumonryu pattern, which is the classic lateral line pattern that encroaches up and AROUND large perfect doitsu scales.
    To be fair and kind to your fish, perhaps true kumonryu was a thing of the time when the crosses were more delineated and raw. And the contamination of their isolated gene pools now makes the look and meaning of the name 'Kumonryu' gone for ever? Or perhaps until western shows demand a higher adherence to the breed standard and name? - JR

  9. #9
    Oyagoi CarolinaGirl's Avatar
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    Interesting post JR! So let me show you a fish I bought as a Beni kumonryu from Eastern at the orlando show 2008. I have shown him once and he got the judges award. So far, I have had him for a little over a year and there has been very little change in the black pattern. If anything, it has receded a bit. The black did start to fade 2 months ago (very unattractive...I could see through the black) , but rebounded and it's thick and dark again. Is this really a Beni kumonryu? (doesn't really matter either way....for a $30 fish, I sure do like it!)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Masaki Kumonryu-cimg6787-small-.jpg  

  10. #10
    Tosai
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    Dear JR,

    however I think your reply is quite interesting, I can not go with your oppinion in everything.

    In Holland you do come across some 'kumonryu', but when you are a bit more of a Koi kichi, you will see that that Koi is a 'Doitsu' Hajiro, Hageshiro or even Yotsushiro. Quite a shame, but many hobbyist fall for it, because they always wanted a kumonryu!

    But I think that a Kumonryu does not have to have the lateral pattern like you mentioned. However that specific patterning is an ideal characteristic of Kumonryu, some and mostly larger ones) can be quite outstanding even with a black shoulder.

    Then, the water in Holland is quite hardened which will allow the sumi to come to the surface. In the relatively softer waters, the sumi will mostly stay away. So in Holland, the lateral lining is quite rare. I do share with you the meaning that it should be the breeding standard, but we got the same probleme with goshiki and goromo. the mostlikely always get 'overdone'. It probably is possible, but then you need the better kumonryu which will not leave Japan and certainly not arrive i Holland.

    The Dutch Koi and pind days were judged by Takamitsu Sekiguchi and Toshyaki Sakai (Yammamatsu Koi Farm).

    greetings,

    Tiebo

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