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Thread: Serious winter problems..Advice is appreciated.

  1. #171
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    Grant
    all of the differences you mention but "gut length" I could improve on anyone that was a contestant on the biggest loser..yes including fat WITHIN the organs (fat is stored within organs when those organs need large amounts of energy to do extended amounts of work, Fat is stored external to the organs in sedentary people)...and I am not sure that gut length can't be adjusted to body length if an individual were to lead different lifestyles and maintain different diets.
    Also too long a gut might make a "slower" carp and those might be easier caught/eaten so nature could be sembetsuing the shorter gut, however a longer gut would help with food absorbtion, and if the object of koi breeders is bigger fish a longer gut would improvre nutritional uptake and not hinder growth as much as a shorter gut...a longer gut also provides animals with the ability to absorb nutrition from coarser foods so a carp spawn that were placed in an area or in a condition where food quality remained extremely poor would probably sembetsu for "longer guts" and cull the faster, shorter guts.

    but those are interesting differences, in the fact that someone bothered to quantify the anatomical differences...could you provide a footnote so i can read the rest of the material?
    Makes sense Luke. The intestine thing troubled me a bit trying to figure how a shorter one would be more efficient...

    As for the research and providing footnotes? I'm afraid I just surfed till I went blurry and jotted down stuff as I found it.

    All the info I gleaned was from published papers originating from University's around the world. I did find a bunch of stuff from dealers/breeder's/forums, but didn't include it as I felt it wouldn't be as substantiated as the other.

    It's actually amazing to see how many different varieties of carp there are, let alone nishikigoi. Stumbled across another study done on food deprivation carp... nasty looking skinny things with bad teeth and big eyes. Never got to the end of that paper, but the carp's adaptability to it's environment (in this case, near starvation) was amazing.

    Grant

  2. #172
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Now that is some good information. I appreciate Gcuss and koicop putting that here. I was very interested in the physiology...good stuff.

  3. #173
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Excellent work, Grant, with some nifty info I hadn't seen before. Hope you won't mind that I've added your post to my file?

    FYI: Another organ with noticeable differentiation is the swim bladder -- but the differences betwixt the two extend down to the level of their DNA.

    I read a post somewhere (probably JR on NI) that compared and contrasted the DNA of European carp, Japanese carp and Nishikigoi; and the differences between the latter and its progenitors were substantial.

    As for survivability issues, let's go back to the very beginning:

    * The original wild ancestors of Common Carp were from the Black, Caspian and Aral Sea drainages of Europe and Asia; Common Carp found in all other locations around the world have been transported there by man.

    * In their natural range, Common Carp migrate up great rivers and out onto the floodplains to breed in Spring; as temps cool and the waters recede from the floodplains, they migrate back down the rivers towards the warmer brackish estuaries of the sea in the Fall. They do not live in lakes -- unless trapped, or placed there by man -- and they do not naturally winter under the ice.

    * As JR has often said, "Carp and koi are very adaptable creatures and tough as nails when compared to other fish species. So they have been hand carried and shipped all over the world. Every carp has a natural survival range and an ideal or optimal range. Where they can live and where they flourish are not necessarily the same thing/place. The tragedy of koi is that their survival zone is far bigger than their optimum zone."

    * While Nature culls for the survival of the species in the wild with no regard for individuals, man culls for the beauty of the individual (e.g., skin, scale, color, pattern, size) with no regard for survival of the species in the wild. And why should they? Nishikigoi aren't bred to be used for stocking wild waters.

    * The modern nishikigoi we know today are very much akin to 'hot house flowers' that have had a large measure of their wild vigor bred out of them.

    * As a result, Common Carp and Nishikigoi still share the same Optimum Zone, but Nishikigoi's Survival Zone has shrunk by comparison.

    * And that's why they fare so much more poorly than their wilder cousins when forced to unnaturally winter under the ice.

    Make sense?
    Yup! That's why my fish are inside in a nice warm "tank".

    Another thing as well... Of all the papers I read on the subject, almost all mirrored what I know about the origins of nishikigoi. Quite a bit of reference to the importance of the carp pulled from the danube...

    Grant

  4. #174
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Hello Grant . . .

    The one thing you posted that struck me as a bit odd concerned gut length; my recollection was that it's proportionally shorter in koi than in their wild cousins?

    Maybe I got it from this post of REC's on KoiVet:

    One of the things that JR offered as proof of difference was that the carp's gut was longer than the koi's. I have done a lot of PM's on koi and a couple on carp and honestly, I could not tell you if this is true or not, but just on theory, it stands to reason that the well-kept koi would have a shorter gut. Why, you ask? Well, thanks for asking... my theory (and it fits along the lines of evolution) is that because a well-kept koi is fed more regularly and usually a better quality of food than is readily available in nature, the gut does not need to process the food as thoroughly as we would expect in nature where the carp's digestive tract is going to extract every bit of nutrition it can because it might not know where the next meal is coming from. So, in theory, a shorter gut can accomplish in a well-kept carp what a longer gut can accomplish in nature. More efficiency ... less energy.
    Source: REC 8 November 2007
    http://koivet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23259
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  5. #175
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Don,

    As one could imagine, a lot of the reading went over my head and wasn't included... The ratio thing when read in context was a ratio compared to the weight of the body mass. Therefore, a larger number would indicate a larger gut I believe. I went back and tried sifting through my browser history and was unable to find it. I believe the authors on that bit were RC Hoffmann and EK Balon, but I can't locate that piece of text.

    Grant

  6. #176
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Thanks for double checking, Grant.

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