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Thread: Serious winter problems..Advice is appreciated.

  1. #21
    Honmei
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    I think I tried to warn you back in October

    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  2. #22
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Hello Bob . . .

    Sorry to hear you're having problems.

    In addition to dealing with the above mentioned cold water problems (which, by the way, should not be killing healthy koi this soon into winter), you need to check out this thread (especially my post #12).

    http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/genera...cting-odd.html

    Your pix tell me there's not enough open water to gas off the CO2 trapped under the ice, which can kill your koi irrespective of oxygen levels.

    As Richard posted: Aeration during winter is an excellent way to keep CO2 levels down. If you do not currently monitor CO2 in your pond, I strongly urge you to do so. Levels up to 5ppm will make them uncomfortable, between 5 ppm & 9 ppm your fish will get sick, over 10 ppm you will see mortalities...especially in the larger koi.
    Source: http://koivetforum.com/index.php?topic=832.msg6037#msg6037

    So, please -- buy an inexpensive test kit and let us know what the #'s are, OK?

    Best wishes,
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  3. #23
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    LOL...the penguins are great!

    ....sorry about laughing during your troubles.

  4. #24
    Daihonmei
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    Ice acts as an insulator

  5. #25
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Bob, although the solar covers are made to lay on the water, you've going to have a problem with it holding snow and water. Ever time it rains, I have to dump the water off of mine because I didn't have time to build a frame.

    As big as your pond is, you're not going to be able to do that.

  6. #26
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    this is what I am currently seeing. The bubblers are at the surface keeping a small hole in the ice. You can see they are not crazy strong bubblers...just enough to keep an opening. At this point, I think the ice layer is cutting down on the wind factor. You can also see where it is 2 blocks (16inches) above ground. So Eugene, you think the fact that it is partially above ground is adding to my problem? If I lowered the water level (when I am able) to ground level, you think that will be safer? I was going to get something like this:
    SOLAR POOL COVER BEST HEATING THERMOTEX BLANKET 16 X 36 - eBay (item 200293446397 end time Jan-06-09 06:05:35 PST)

    Lay it flat on the surface...because that is how this product is used, it must lay on the waters surface. Then cut holes where the aistones are to allow gas exchange. I only need the temp to go up a few degrees to be in a safer zone.
    The partially above ground is a big problem for heat loss. You can try the blanket . Other factors are temp of ground water, is ground clay or sand.
    temperature expected over next two months general exposure to wind. If the temp stays at no lower than 42f you should be ok if not you will have to do something other or risk loosing fish or damaging them. A lot of the
    spring problems are from winter problems. if you survive this year plan for some form of winter cover. Ice is a great insulator but just think of it this
    way .For ice to form water has to first drop to 35f and then floats up. In a 6ft pond you might get away with it but not in 4ft for koi ok for goldfish .
    Best not to have ice forming by a greenhouse type covering I use two layers of poly with air in between a small heater and a blanket pulled over every night. The problem with a blanket is that sometimes water gets on top and the fish get on top of the blanket . They get chilled and die.That is how I lost some of my best fish .
    Regards
    Eugene

  7. #27
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Steve...I get your point. But, it's not very helpful. My pond is not overstocked or underfiltered. My parameters are always very good, and no health problems this season. I have done things this way successfully in my old pond for several years. I moved to this new house and pond 2 years ago. Last season..It was easy to blame on the salt. It was an obvious mistake. As for the space in the ice...it was successful on my other pond for years. Plus...the space has been much more open recently. Since with each warm spell it opens much wider...degassing is probably not an issue. I really feel Eugene is on to something. It is a temperature issue with this pond....and I need to figure out why? Maybe because 16inches is above ground(my old pond was 4ft below ground only). Maybe because I am close to wetlands and have a high water table. I have read REC's winter article more times than I can count. I know and understand all the theory. But this is a problem solving issue that seems to be temperature related. So, I need to figure out specifically why the bottom keeps getting so damn cold??

    I am really trying to rule things out logically, one at a time. Space in the ice...probably not. Same as my old pond and no problems there. Degassing...same method as my old pond, no problems in that pond. What is different than my old pond is being 16inches above ground and close to wetlands with a high water table. I feel it has to be related to that. These are things I simply did not consider when I built this new pond. I thought the added depth (5ft 4inches as opposed to my old pond of 4ft) and volume would make winter much easier. I did not consider that building up instead of digging deeper would make it more exposed to the elements.


    If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

  8. #28
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Eugene...what is poly? What kind of heater do you use? The more details the better. I am not mr handy at all....so, if I try to build a greenhouse over the pond....you can trust it will collapse at the first sign of snow!! The next time it warms up a little...what do you think of lowering the water down 16inches to the 4ft mark. So, all the water is below ground? I can then throw some wood boards across the pond on the cement blocks. I can them place some kind of sheeting or tarp on the wood boards?

  9. #29
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    Steve...I get your point. But, it's not very helpful. My pond is not overstocked or underfiltered. My parameters are always very good, and no health problems this season. I have done things this way successfully in my old pond for several years. I moved to this new house and pond 2 years ago. Last season..It was easy to blame on the salt. It was an obvious mistake. As for the space in the ice...it was successful on my other pond for years. Plus...the space has been much more open recently. Since with each warm spell it opens much wider...degassing is probably not an issue. I really feel Eugene is on to something. It is a temperature issue with this pond....and I need to figure out why? Maybe because 16inches is above ground(my old pond was 4ft below ground only). Maybe because I am close to wetlands and have a high water table. I have read REC's winter article more times than I can count. I know and understand all the theory. But this is a problem solving issue that seems to be temperature related. So, I need to figure out specifically why the bottom keeps getting so damn cold??

    I am really trying to rule things out logically, one at a time. Space in the ice...probably not. Same as my old pond and no problems there. Degassing...same method as my old pond, no problems in that pond. What is different than my old pond is being 16inches above ground and close to wetlands with a high water table. I feel it has to be related to that. These are things I simply did not consider when I built this new pond. I thought the added depth (5ft 4inches as opposed to my old pond of 4ft) and volume would make winter much easier. I did not consider that building up instead of digging deeper would make it more exposed to the elements.
    First off Brutus, my point COULD have been very helpful had you decided to listen back in October and prepare for an adverse winter. Now to the point of why the bottom is getting so cold? Well, when the ground freezes to 3' below the surface and you have 16" above the ground I would say there is your answer. The question now is what to do about that? Bring the Koi indoors into an adequate water volume and filtration or heat and conserve the heat within the pond.

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  10. #30
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    . . .degassing is probably not an issue . . .Space in the ice...probably not. Same as my old pond and no problems there. Degassing...same method as my old pond, no problems in that pond.
    Bob . . .

    More fish, more algae, more organic loading can = more CO2

    We see dozens of these 'koi dying under the ice' cases every year on KoiVet; and every time that it's been early in the season, testing has proved the CO2 buildup has been the problem.

    Later in the season it's an endurance thing and the blame shifts to 'winter too long and harsh.'

    Why be a hardhead and guess?

    Buy a cheap test kit and know for sure.

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