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Thread: Carp behavior vs Koi behavior..I don't think so

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    Carp behavior vs Koi behavior..I don't think so

    Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
    Hi, Bradley!
    Thank you for the welcome.
    Yes, it was completely different than a koi spawn. Most civilised
    Strangely enough with my carp x kohaku spawn the koi males were fairly quiet too.
    I will say that I am not really surprised because so far my experience with wild carp has shown me what amazing creatures they are.
    My girls, who were wild caught, were up and hand feeding within 3 weeks.
    The photo I posted is of them at the edge of their swimming pool pond at the surface and waiting for me to hand feed them. I have now had them just over a year.
    I personally think that this behaviour has more to do with personality than genetics.

    I am following this thread with great interest!

    Bindi,
    I'll say it another way...
    I have touted the logistical strategy of the carp in attempting to survive in an environment which undergoes dramatic changes and wherein a carp spawn is offered multiple environments inwhich they can survive. Such a strategy is termed "succesful" in the real world of carp.
    A successful spawning career would be one inwhich one carp is replaced with one carp, and over the life of a carp it may have millions of offspring. Carp only need to roll the dice correctly once out of a million times to be "successful." And a carp's envronment is constantly changing, so the more "different" rolls the better the chance of a successful spawn.
    So carp create more variation within their spawns than is actually imaginable. yes there are limits...but one spawning throws extreme variations in every possible genetically-linked direction.
    While some traits are linked to others the key to survival in carp is DIVERSITY within a spawn.
    A carp spawn best serves the species when all possible scenarios that the spawn may encounter are covered by at least one fry (with a little luck..maybe the "orange one" is the chosen extreme that will survive in the Shiro magoi cross in another thread?).
    That is what sembetsu/culling is all about...getting rid of the "genetic disasters" we think are not appropriate (that extreme "orange one definitely has the inside track right now doesn't it?).

    Just look at one minor physical aspect that we have observed...showa have fry are both "Black & white." "We" keep the black ones, and destroy the white ones.
    What if a large migrating flock of small wading birds land in the shallows where a showa spawn occurred the day after the fry hatch?
    What happens if the bottom of the shallows is very light..or very dark?
    Now with that being said, that was one event/day in the life of an entire spawn...the spawn is best served by having all the possible parameters covered...

    And this includes behavior...
    So the few carp that are being used to determine the behavioral differences between carp and koi is unrealistic.

    here is a particular interaction I have noticed...
    Fast growing koi (therefore they get big in comparison to same year koi) need alot of food to fuel their metabolism. This drives/forces them to develop feeding strategies that are more extreme than their slower-growing spawn mates if the available food is limited to any degree.
    Their "strategy" is usually to become more aggressive....most of us say..."Chagoi are friendly." which is pure Bullshit...."Chagoi" are driven to come and get it, because the little chagois are culled and the "big" chagoi are distributed throughout the hobby... therefore when we refer to a "chagoi" we (in general) are referring to a chagoi that showed good growth and therefore was not culled, and it is not representative of "chagoi", just the chagoi that were growing fast enough to not be culled, and therefore are pigs/friendly.

    And before the incapable-of-logic chime in about their "little chagoi that could", I clearly stated that a ko/carp spawn has more variation to it than we can fully grasp...
    A small fish that stays small and is a pig is genetically-filling another possibility that may make the spawn a successful one in the end...That chagoi may have an extremely high metabolism. it may be bouncing off the walls 24/7 in comparison to the other fry in the spawn, and that behavior could be exactly what is needed for the life of that fry... it eats alot because its metabolism saids, "MOVE", not "Grow."
    And that small, aggressive chagoi may make it to market because of a lacadasical culling or it was an industrious "jumper" that hopped out of the sembetsu net and into the "keeper" tank.
    It doesn't disprove what i have stated, it adds more proof to it...carp throw every possible combination in every spawn in order to produce ONE carp that survives and successfully breeds.
    THAT is what is on Mother nature's mind when she breeds carp.
    To generalize about carp versus koi behavior based on a few fish is pointless.

  2. #2
    Tosai
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    Thanks, Luke!
    You're experience and knowledge of carp & koi is way above mine.
    I have only been in the hobby just on 2 years and have a big learning curve ahead of me.
    So, you are saying that any different behaviour that you have noticed with your wild carp compared to your koi could not be one of individual personality but is only genetic. That friendly koi /carp are only that way because of their genetic metabolism?

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Luke: I concur with the idea that a few observations is not a basis for reaching a conclusion. I leave open, however, the possibility that the factors leading to success in a wild environment result in different behaviors than those observed in carp selected for reasons unrelated to survival in the wild and protected from the predation and limitation of resources that inhere in a wild environment. How much of the possible differences are genetic or are learned is another aspect. I keep thinking about wild horses.

  4. #4
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Luke: I concur with the idea that a few observations is not a basis for reaching a conclusion. I leave open, however, the possibility that the factors leading to success in a wild environment result in different behaviors than those observed in carp selected for reasons unrelated to survival in the wild and protected from the predation and limitation of resources that inhere in a wild environment. How much of the possible differences are genetic or are learned is another aspect. I keep thinking about wild horses.
    when I read Lukes comments I compared it to wilds boar and domestic pigs. some behavior is the same but much of the "wild" behavvior is mellowed or gone.
    Our koi have not been a wild carp for a very long time, but I do agree with the friendly/hungry pig comparison he makes....remember their brains are quite tiny!

  5. #5
    Daihonmei
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    MikeM
    Please do not consider an animal which has one offspring a year under optimal conditions to an animal that has hundreds of thousands each year.
    Carp/koi, as a species, survive by throwing as much variation as is possible within their genetic makeup.
    As an animal has less offspring, its strategy becomes one inwhich its offspring is more similar to its parents AND the the parents invest huge quantities of time and energy in making sure that offspring survives.
    The theory for animals which have just a few offspring in a breeding life time is that the parents are survivng and are doing well enough to reproduce so a very similar animal of genetic make up to the parents if given the proper nurturing by the parents can become a successful adult.
    In animals which have massive number of offspring their are two strategies.
    This one is not utilized by carp: A species will have a genetically-similar, massive quantity of offsprings in the hopes that a few will find the exact same niche... this most often attempted by plants.
    And this oneis utilized by carp: have a huge number of genetically-dissimilar offspring in the hope that some of them will be genetically suited to one of the multi-dimensional, and multi-changing and challenging environments.
    But this is not to say that the carp genetic pool has not been reshaped by breeders. But please do not suggest that the behavior of a few wild carp in relation to several koi is worth drawing a conclusion.
    I know some of the carp being discussed were captive bred, but any carp that was caught in the wild has already been "sembetsued by Mother Nature", and that would completely explain their speed and skittishness...all the koi you guys are comparing them to that are slow would have been eaten by anything from a dragonfly larvae to an osprey.
    And the spawn bred from wild caught carp are going to have a great variation, however it will have the flavor of the carp that did in fact create it... let me give an example that is black and white and orange.
    if you breed a karasugoi and a shiromiji what are you gonna get? white, black, gray, white & black, and even some orange will be thrown into the mix....probably all chagoi colors and ochiba-esque...perhaps not Midori-goi.
    breed two wild carp and the variation will betheir just not as obvious to the untrained observer..in EVERYTHING from body shape, color, growth history, and behavior.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    And as to wild caught carp behaving different in a pond... imagine
    first the carp was sembetsued by the harshest breeders
    then it was traumatized to the extreme when caught and then placed in a completely foreign environment
    then imagine fish that spawn identify with similar fish in regard to everything....swimming speed, body shape, size, and behavior.
    "Schooling behavior" is not a stand alone behavior.... a wild carp will identify with simialr fish...koi have very few similar characteristics and will therefore appear "un-joinable". Fish school to appear as one, to be able to hide.... the carp you all have been discussing even look disimilar to you all..imagine how dissimilar they look when deciding if they meet the criteria to be a gtoup worth schooling with.

  7. #7
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    generally behaviour is

    inate or learnt or a mixture of thereof, A behaviour driven by survival is going to be strongly inate (eg flight/fight response). A behaviour that occurs infrequently is going to be strongly inate

    domestication can modify behaviour and this reverts back when released back intot he wild.

    behaviour can be taught, some animals and individuals within a species are easier to teach than others

    behaviours that have a gebetic basis can be bred in or out with selective breeding

    when looking at behaviour, the observer effect needs to be taken into accout. ie that the observation of the behaviour may influence the behaviour

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    generally behaviour is

    inate or learnt or a mixture of thereof, A behaviour driven by survival is going to be strongly inate (eg flight/fight response). A behaviour that occurs infrequently is going to be strongly inate

    domestication can modify behaviour and this reverts back when released back intot he wild.

    behaviour can be taught, some animals and individuals within a species are easier to teach than others

    behaviours that have a gebetic basis can be bred in or out with selective breeding

    when looking at behaviour, the observer effect needs to be taken into accout. ie that the observation of the behaviour may influence the behaviour
    yes all generally true

    and I had just started another thread about such, using a particular example

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