a sense of fairness

[JasPR]

One of my koi friends emailed me something on another message board that I would like to respond to--

Recently it was suggested that JR had called for a boycott of a certain message board and this was being mentioned as a counter argument for those that have suggested koi keepers should boycott a national koi organization, one that does much good in the koi world, acts as a center to over 100 actual koi clubs and one that supports, provides judges for and structures 90% of the koi shows in America.

Ironically, I need really go no further than this, I am BANNED from entering any posts on that message board- either constructive or critical. I was banned, I assume for suggesting ' a word to the wise' regarding the CONTENT and AGENDA of a MESSAGE BOARD. And although I often make fun of the hyperbole associated with the Internet koi club version of that message board, I have not suggested boycotting of that imaginary club.

In addition, those calling for a law suit, and it was directed at me as well no matter what the revisionists tell you, and the call for a boycott of a national organization and it's publication were to financially harm AKCA. Not a patriotic or constructive criticism , but a call for destruction. And this spear head was headed by certified individuals of an organizational program. Think about that for a moment-- individuals funded and trained by a national organization ( the very same organizational training that gives them an identity in the koi world) call for it to be financially damaged as part of a political agenda. Put yourself in the shoes of those charged with the responsibility of running that national organization, what would you do?

But I don't want to get off the track. I was banned from a message board for speaking my mind. I have been useful since that time as ' an enemy at the gate' for that message board's agenda. I had no choice in the matter. I did not resign and I did not look to destroy the associated internet koi club. And as I said, except for poking at the hype associated with vast numbers of members and hits ( it is funny, you have to admit!) I have not called for a boycott of the imaginary club.
So comparing my comments, as an unaffliliated person, regarding the CONTENT of a message board to the calls for causing of financial damage to an organization by those certified by that same organization, is the classic comparison of apples and oranges. Or possibly an attempted manipulation of sloppy thinkers to see ' the same' where there is none. - JR

PS. I apologize to Jim North and Brian for posting this here in the 'outside section' and hope it is not taking advantage. I simply have no outlet for this subject anywhere else.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR One of my koi friends emailed me something on another message board that I would like to respond to-- Recently it was suggested that JR had called for a boycott of a certain message board and this was being mentioned as a counter argument for those that have suggested koi keepers should boycott a national koi organization, one that does much good in the koi world, acts as a center to over 100 actual koi clubs and one that supports, provides judges for and structures 90% of the koi shows in America. Ironically, I need really go no further than this, I am BANNED from entering any posts on that message board- either constructive or critical. I was banned, I assume for suggesting ' a word to the wise' regarding the CONTENT and AGENDA of a MESSAGE BOARD. And although I often make fun of the hyperbole associated with the Internet koi club version of that message board, I have not suggested boycotting of that imaginary club. In addition, those calling for a law suit, and it was directed at me as well no matter what the revisionists tell you, and the call for a boycott of a national organization and it's publication were to financially harm AKCA. Not a patriotic or constructive criticism , but a call for destruction. And this spear head was headed by certified individuals of an organizational program. Think about that for a moment-- individuals funded and trained by an national organization ( the very same organizational training that gives them an identity in the koi world) call for it to be financially damaged as pat of a political agenda. Put yourself in the shoes of those charged with the responsibility of running that national organization, what would you do? But I don't want to get off the track. I was banned from a message board for speaking my mind. I have been useful since that time as ' an enemy at the gate' for that message board's agenda. I had no choice in the matter. I did not resign and I did not look to destroy the associated internet koi club. And as I said, except for poking at the hype associated with vast numbers of members and hits ( it is funny, you have to admit!) I have not called for a boycott of the imaginary club. So comparing my comments as an unaffliliated person, regarding the CONTENT of message board to the calls for causing of financial damage to an organization by those certified by that same organization is the classic comparison of apples and oranges. Or possibly an attempted manipulation of sloppy thinkers to see ' the same' where is none. - JR PS. I apologize to Jim North and Brian for posting this here in the 'outside section' and hope it is not taking advantage. I simply have no outlet for this subject anywhere else.

JR,
I have been told that the thread called "setting the record straight" has a few comments about me also, so I would also like to set the record straight..

stephen
Koiphen Member
WWKC Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #2
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Koiphenville
Posts: 20,131


Setting the Record Straight - Enough with the Lies
Last night Nancy Morales posted the following on another message board and I quote:

lets see the Dark Lord...................... the same one who did not pay for a fish that won GC, till after the show............. So to be honest he really didnt win GC that year, since he did not own the fish prior to judging... Nancy Morales

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi Koi
Not saying there isn't a time and place for protest and boycott. I just don't feel that was one of them. There was more to that event then what was posted in this thread and neither side was an innocent victim. Perhaps I am biased as a dealer, but I want to see the hobby grow and I am tired of all this fighting that is driving good organizations apart. This back and fourth, he said, she said, only damages the hobby.

In the end, all these posts really mean very little to the greater hobby. But I simply ask that all of you use your money to support the organizations that have supported the hobby for so many years. Whether its the WWKC, the AKCA or the ZNA, lets help to build the hobby up, not break it down.

Surely you jest Ned. But let us go back to my original post #1. Do you believe this exact quote from Nancy Morales from a couple days ago:

"lets see the Dark Lord...................... the same one who did not pay for a fish that won GC, till after the show............. So to be honest he really didnt win GC that year, since he did not own the fish prior to judging..." Nancy Morales

More specifically Ned, Do you believe I had an agreement with dealer Ray Abel that he would show his fish and if it won GC I would buy it

No dancing Ned - Yes or No

If yes, I will respond to your reply. If no, was there also another side to this unprovoked attack from Nancy Morales and if so what was it


This is the kind of twisting that just pisses me off.. Were did I ever say that Ray Able, would stoop to that level??? Perhaps Ray was waiting patiently to get his money... Those are SH words, not mine. Kind of like when I was LMAO about SH paying $50K for a scarred fish.. He tried to tell everyone that I was saying Ray did something wrong, when in fact I was LMAO and applauding Ray for being able to sell that fish for $50K. Just goes to show everyone, that SH will twist anything he can , to play the victum card. He constantly grabs pieces of old post and threads, and takes them out of context, just to make everyone pity him...

[JasPR]

well, I don't really want to get into personalities as much as the strategy being employed. In that regard, I agree of course, that whenever 'sides' develop around any subject, on any kind of message board ( regardless of subject- fish, cameras, model trains etc) there are always individuals who will vacillate in a predictable way through - 'rage', meltdown and then claim to own victim status as a way to manipulate and solicit support and pity. So our boy is no rare bird in that regard. What I'm more interested in exposing however, is the technique employed by man since emerging from the caves and that is to - point to the enemy at the gate. A classic bait and switch in which the Populus is distracted to the presence or behavior of others as a rallying cry so as to create momentum for the leadership. It works for sure, but is it 'right'?
To my mind, and especially in the hobby world, organizations are built and remain around positive things. In the case of AKCA, a 30 year plus National organization, we have created a network of over 100 koi clubs, a network of annual koi shows, a National magazine with publication going back to the 1970s. It has a rich tradition, a fraternal environment and most importantly, it has stood the tests of time including some fierce political struggles. And unlike most bureaucracy, I have seen and known, it manages to retain it's primary mission statement. Case in point, the fund raising efforts for KHV research and the training of member club’s members in koi health management issues. This is a real thing folks - a living active organization with a positive mission.
And then we have the negative synergies. In that case you will see a singular focus on personality and people behavior. And it is important and necessary to have villains and enemies everywhere. This is the glue that holds the loose alliances together. Otherwise membership ( readership really) drift to the winds as they have with many message boards of the past.
meanwhile, "the fish are innocent." - JR

[HenryC]

Thanks for addressing that Nancy. I was there in 2005 and know exactly what transpired. Remember, this is back when most of us (including myself) still had a postive relationship with Height. I spoke to Ray Abell on that Sunday morning after judging. At the time he was wondering if he was going to have to pack the Kokaku up and take it back with him or not. He had gone to the trouble to aquire the Koi for Height and did so without payment in advance. Height had still not paid Ray as of Sunday morning. Ray finally was able to track down Height and got payment. The real question is, if the Kohaku had not won, would Height have paid Ray? Ray in no way made a deal with Height, nor did anybody make that accusation. Height's recent post is just another example of how he will twist what others say in order to make it look like he is an innocent victim.

As to his other claim about the show staff being upset that he won some of the top awards, that again is total BS and he knows it. Again, back then most of us still had a positive relationship with him. Given the fact that he did not "technically" own the Koi when it was judged, the show chair, that's me, could have disqualified the Koi. Instead, because I know Ray Abell and trust him, I knew is was not a case of a dealer showing a Koi. It was a case of the new owner not making the expected timely payment. I let the judgement stand.

Height continues to claim the show staff did not like him winning. If that was the case, would I have talked him into showing the next year? Would I have filled out his registration form for him and paid his entry fee out of my own pocket (with the expectation he pay me back)? Would I have honored his request to not publicize his entry so those that had seen him for what he truly was would not attack him? Not likely. And what did I get for that effort? He cancelled the day of the show. Most likely because others that saw the condition of his Koi told him it would not be a good idea. Now if he wants to argue that point, I can pull one of his famed antics and post a scan of the form and the cancelled check.

As far as his claim to have never threatened to sue anyone, that is true BS as well. Attached is a PDF of his "complaint" to the AKCA. He threatened to sue the AKCA if they did not remove Art. When the AKCA refused to even reply to his letters, he threw a hissy fit and told the AKCA board that he would then sue Art, JR, Steve, Cheryl and I personnaly intead. Now that is the facts, not what Height wants to now claim. Just another example of his revisionist history in an effort to polish his non-existent tarnished halo.

[MCPS Mike]

Not saying too much. But if what has been posted above is now a "new thread" on that board when it is ALL very old news, one has to wonder "why" ?

I would be happier if the hobby could find a way to unify again. But as long as these tactics persist it will never heal.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by HenryC Thanks for addressing that Nancy. I was there in 2005 and know exactly what transpired. Remember, this is back when most of us (including myself) still had a postive relationship with Height. I spoke to Ray Abell on that Sunday morning after judging. At the time he was wondering if he was going to have to pack the Kokaku up and take it back with him or not. He had gone to the trouble to aquire the Koi for Height and did so without payment in advance. Height had still not paid Ray as of Sunday morning. Ray finally was able to track down Height and got payment. The real question is, if the Kohaku had not won, would Height have paid Ray? Ray in no way made a deal with Height, nor did anybody make that accusation. Height's recent post is just another example of how he will twist what others say in order to make it look like he is an innocent victim. As to his other claim about the show staff being upset that he won some of the top awards, that again is total BS and he knows it. Again, back then most of us still had a positive relationship with him. Given the fact that he did not "technically" own the Koi when it was judged, the show chair, that's me, could have disqualified the Koi. Instead, because I know Ray Abell and trust him, I knew is was not a case of a dealer showing a Koi. It was a case of the new owner not making the expected timely payment. I let the judgement stand. Height continues to claim the show staff did not like him winning. If that was the case, would I have talked him into showing the next year? Would I have filled out his registration form for him and paid his entry fee out of my own pocket (with the expectation he pay me back)? Would I have honored his request to not publicize his entry so those that had seen him for what he truly was would not attack him? Not likely. And what did I get for that effort? He cancelled the day of the show. Most likely because others that saw the condition of his Koi told him it would not be a good idea. Now if he wants to argue that point, I can pull one of his famed antics and post a scan of the form and the cancelled check. As far as his claim to have never threatened to sue anyone, that is true BS as well. Attached is a PDF of his "complaint" to the AKCA. He threatened to sue the AKCA if they did not remove Art. When the AKCA refused to even reply to his letters, he threw a hissy fit and told the AKCA board that he would then sue Art, JR, Steve, Cheryl and I personnaly intead. Now that is the facts, not what Height wants to now claim. Just another example of his revisionist history in an effort to polish his non-existent tarnished halo.

Henry


Thank you for refreshing all our memory's, of the 2005 show.

SH continues to throw stones at all of us, but when we fight back, he plays the poor me victim card. He posts crap that is so old and out of the original context, that it makes me laugh. When he is reminded by us, that he is the one who did these things and made these accusations, he cries see they are always picking on me, they are the ones who won't let the past stay in the past...

As long as he continues his vendetta against the AKCA, judges, hobbyist, there will always be friction amongst the koi boards.

I wonder what way he will spin the letters you have attached?

[LadySusan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. Henry Thank you for refreshing all our memory's, of the 2005 show. SH continues to throw stones at all of us, but when we fight back, he plays the poor me victim card. He posts crap that is so old and out of the original context, that it makes me laugh. When he is reminded by us, that he is the one who did these things and made these accusations, he cries see they are always picking on me, they are the ones who won't let the past stay in the past... As long as he continues his vendetta against the AKCA, judges, hobbyist, there will always be friction amongst the koi boards. I wonder what way he will spin the letters you have attached?

Wait a dam minute! Don started all this with that post about one of Stephen's koi dieing and you along with a few others just had to add your vile comments! Who is throwing stones at who!

Also, I will not be showing koi at Orlando's show with HC as chairman since he allows fish to be entered and not payed for! Who is to say this doesn't happen every year now and I do not care if you know the dealer or not!

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by LadySusan Wait a dam minute! Don started all this with that post about one of Stephen's koi dieing and you along with a few others just had to add your vile comments! Who is throwing stones at who! Also, I will not be showing koi at Orlando's show with HC as chairman since he allows fish to be entered and not payed for! Who is to say this doesn't happen every year now and I do not care if you know the dealer or not!

***************
Gimme a freaking break:

Nobody even knew who Don was when this all started back in 2004-2006.

He's just the most recent in a long line of boogeymen at the Koiphlegm gates used by the Dark Lord to ralley his minions, lackeys and toadies behind him and his WWKC.

People like you, Susan.

Oh Henry
You better cancel next years show, Lady Susan has officially boycotted it..

[LadySusan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. *************** Gimme a freaking break: Nobody even knew who Don was when this all started back in 2004-2006. He's just the most recent in a long line of boogeymen at the Koiphlegm gates used by the Dark Lord to ralley his minions, lackeys and toadies behind him and his WWKC. People like you, Susan. Oh Henry You better cancel next years show, Lady Susan has officially boycotted it..

Nancy now look who twists things!!!! Why not take the time to READ before you post! Oh brother here we go with the boycotting again...AND WHO PUTS WORDS IN WHO'S MOUTH!

So you agree with Chairman's breaking their own rules??????????????? But then you are use to it aren't you?? Since you worked for a dealer and still showed your fish!! Guess it's all in who you know

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by LadySusan Since you worked for a dealer and still showed your fish!! Guess it's all in who you know

Now I would think that you would have thanked me for working for a dealer, since I was the one that sold you that beautiful kohaku. If I recall didn't some of those nasty koi judges also help you pick it out? I sure do remember having to give you my thoughts and advice.


Just goes to show that you don't have a single thought of your own... Some ole chit, different day...


Please contact, ZNA SoCal, KCSD, RMKC, SAKA, VOTS, KCOB,BAKS,NKC, and speak to the presidents and or show chairman... I want you to see how many rules those clubs allowed me to break...


Ooooo yes it is in all you know...let's see SH shows a fish in California while he sits behind his computer in florida and then wins AKCA fish and does not belong to that club...