will the underwear bomber end a presidency?

[JasPR]

The underwear bomber is going thru the US court system with a high priced lawyer and all the rights of a naturalized American. No concern about harsh questioning for this suicide bomber. Instead he is lawyered up and our progressives feel very good about our 'higher priniciples, as defined by folks living in a la la land.
But what if we could have sweat this kid for three or four weeks. yes, I mean make him uncomfortable and use psychological tactics to extract information over time- how wonderful would that be! No revenge mind you--- just information.
Some have said that the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber are the same set of issues. But this is a shift of logic based on superficial similarites of technique for setting off explosions in clothing-- nothing more. Still, any good lawyer will skin with the superficial as opposed to the circumstances and details. One was investigated as the enemy and tried in court ( a hybrid approach) and easily researched in the UK. The other is a surprise package fresh out of Yemen- the new center for terrorist activity. There is a fundamental difference unfortunately between assuring US consitutional rights to an accussed citizen and sweating a foreign enemy for information that can save future lives.
In truth, we are further down the road in the WAR. Even Obama, as uncomfortable as I have ever seen him, has moved closer to Bush in his view of Al Qaeda and the international war on terrorism. He used the word " war" a word he rejected in an effort to distance himself Bush and seek approval from the passionate progressive partisans that elected him. But soon, as out of touch as the ultra liberals are, REALITY drifts to the forefront and Mr O will be pulled more towards America's interests and safety.
On another front, the capture and release philosophy of the progressives regarding Yemeni prisoners of war at Gitmo is also becoming unraveled. Two of the releasees are active in the Yemeni camps. This is also a problem for the symbolic actions ( rejection of Bush) and the reality ( the fact that these are committed enemy combatants and leaders of their movement and we releasing them and downgrading their status). Would we capture and release Nazis in 1942? I think not.

So Mr O has a choice-- continue down the road of police action and a policy of catch and release until something really bad happens in NYC, L.A., San Fran or the Mall of America , and risk his career in the process. Or move to a more conservative center and treat the enemy as they are- enemy combatants who need to removed from this world before they poison more young muslim minds. In which case, he looses the ultra progressive support ( and we all know how nasty they can get when disappointed). The proverbial ' rock and a hard spot'.

One thing is for sure-- this underwear bomber was in those yemeni camps just a short while ago and has information we could have used. Now he is lawyered up and this valuable information is lost. It would have been nice to have gotten this rat's history to trace back to the rat's nest. Names, fellow trainees, countries of origin, how he was funded, handlers, level of training, contact who got him on the plane-- so much to learn and potentially, so many lives to safe. In exchange, I guess the Copenhagen crowd likes us a bit more. But winning prizes from a rather kookie nation is a poor trade off for US lives and the safety of travel. IMHO. JR

[Brutuscz]

Yes, having to follow our own constitution and prisoners rights can be a bltch...but, that is the way it is. I do not need to remind you that a republican named Mcain was the most outspoken against torture of prisoners...not, some ultra liberal??? I, personally, have no problem with it. Bring in the battery cables and duct tape...Safety of our country first in this case.
Who ever said we are not at war?? I must have missed that...because we are certainly at war. When Obama ran for office, he made it very clear that we would pursue this enemy into afganistan or into pakistan if needed. He made his speech very forcefully and his point known to all...including ultra-liberals!!! He is not heading towards a bush point of view...he is continuing the stance he has taken from the begining.
Wheather we are sending troops troops into yemen or pakistan and calling it a war or police action..what is truly the difference? 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other...the reality will be the same.
As far as loosing the liberal support...doesn't matter. They will still vote for him again over palin, huckabee or romney...that, I can guarantee you. They will grumble a little...but the fright of palin in the oval office will bring them all running back to the polls.

[JasPR]

Dude, two things- I can't stand McCain ( although his surge idea was right on and Bush waited too long after testing the headwinds). To me McCain is another Washington insider in war hero's clothing. Some good ideas but at the end of the day, hopeless in his desire to get along and not upset anyone. And second, Obama was completely reactionary and simply told the electorate what they wanted to hear. Lets hope his pragmatic side should be have one, emerges.
In the end, the reactionary stuff is now giving way to the hard realities of governing-- and its not so easy as throwing stones or 'fighting the man' . It's crunch time.
The consititution is about America and American civilian citizens or those breaking US domestic law. The 'criminal', in this case, is not a civilian citizen criminal who stole , raped or attempted to murder someone. The 'criminal' is an enemy combatant looking to inflict casualties in an act of war against another culture. The criminal should be subject to rules of war as we are in a war with a known movement and he is direct soldier of that group. The IRA was THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY. they wore no uniforms but were organized for one purpose -- to kill and terrorize people. Lebanon was destroyed by war yet there was no army as there was no real represntative government by the time it collapsed completely.
Obama is now stuck with the rhetoric he spouted to get elected. And it is a very visible corner he has pained himself into with his words and promises. You can attempt to thread the needle for him. I'm only interested in the facts.
My prediction is he will gradually drift to the Bush point of view- or 'Bush-light' if you will. JR

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Dude, two things- I can't stand McCain ( although his surge idea was right on and Bush waited too long after testing the headwinds). To me McCain is another Washington insider in war hero's clothing. Some good ideas but at the end of the day, hopeless in his desire to get along and not upset anyone. And second, Obama was completely reactionary and simply told the electorate what they wanted to hear. Lets hope his pragmatic side should be have one, emerges. In the end, the reactionary stuff is now giving way to the hard realities of governing-- and its not so easy as throwing stones or 'fighting the man' . It's crunch time. I definitely disagree with this. Not reactionary at all...saw the urgency as much as anyone who watched the towers fall. My joke was you could elect Mr Magoo now...he would still have to be tough on terrorism. The hand was dealt at 9-11...anyone taking over the presidency will have to be tough on this issue. There is no middle ground. But...also smart enough not to waste resources on the WRONG country!!! The consititution is about America and American civilian citizens or those breaking US domestic law. The 'criminal', in this case, is not a civilian citizen criminal who stole , raped or attempted to murder someone. The 'criminal' is an enemy combatant looking to inflict casualties in an act of war against another culture. The criminal should be subject to rules of war as we are in a war with a known movement and he is direct soldier of that group. The IRA was THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY. they wore no uniforms but were organized for one purpose -- to kill and terrorize people. Lebanon was destroyed by war yet there was no army as there was no real represntative government by the time it collapsed completely. Obama is now stuck with the rhetoric he spouted to get elected. And it is a very visible corner he has pained himself into with his words and promises. You can attempt to thread the needle for him. I'm only interested in the facts. My prediction is he will gradually drift to the Bush point of view- or 'Bush-light' if you will. JR

I am all for stringing the guy up...beheaded, drawn and quartered. I am all for the death penalty in this case...so, I think we see this the same. Even though he will go through the court system...I would like to see the death penalty as the outcome. I do not know the legality of it..but, it would be nice to see the terrorsist get what he deserves.
It was not rhetoric he spouted...it was his his future policy. I liked it when he said it...I like it now. He is consistent in this, say what you like?
I also specifically like that he took responsibility for it...saying the buck stops with him. WOW...a president who takes responsibility!!! Kinda nice to hear after the last 8yrs of failures and denials!!!

[PapaBear]

I fear poor Bob has never read the Constitution, nor could he pass a Civics 101 class without remediation

What we are now doing does not follow the Constitution Bob. What we are doing now does not follow the Geneva Convention either. Our Constitution does not grant to Foreign Nationals the rights of American Citizenship. The Geneva Convention does not grant ANY protections to "enemy combatants" such as this Nigerian tool. Terrorist organizations and their member/followers are in fact specifically excluded by the Geneva Convention, which only applies to "Uniformed members of Armed Forces of NATIONS". Al Quaida is not a nation.

At no time in our nations history (until now that is) have we granted any such rights to enemy combatants. FDR had German spies captured on American soil tried, convicted, and executed by military tribunals. FDR is supposedly the Bamster's hero, but for the sake of political correctness he has abandoned common sense.

[Jimbo]

There's talk about a plea bargin! What's up with that. He should be "Water Boarded". I'm sure in a military court their would be no talk of a bargin.

It was a act of war. War seems somewhat Military to me. Did prisioners in any other "WAR" get a non military trail?

[JasPR]

Think about this one;

We have a president that is currently authorizing the assination of a US citizen in Yemen ( death by drone) for being a suspected Al Qaeda ring leader and organizer-- no due process, just hunt him down and kill him in another sovereign country.
And at the same time we have a president who insists that the underwear bomber ( a non citizen) rank and file soldier of Al Qaeda be afforded all the consititutional rights of a US citizen and be allowed the right to be lawyered up!

What's wrong with this picture? O what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive! JR

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear I fear poor Bob has never read the Constitution, nor could he pass a Civics 101 class without remediation What we are now doing does not follow the Constitution Bob. What we are doing now does not follow the Geneva Convention either. Our Constitution does not grant to Foreign Nationals the rights of American Citizenship. The Geneva Convention does not grant ANY protections to "enemy combatants" such as this Nigerian tool. Terrorist organizations and their member/followers are in fact specifically excluded by the Geneva Convention, which only applies to "Uniformed members of Armed Forces of NATIONS". Al Quaida is not a nation. At no time in our nations history (until now that is) have we granted any such rights to enemy combatants. FDR had German spies captured on American soil tried, convicted, and executed by military tribunals. FDR is supposedly the Bamster's hero, but for the sake of political correctness he has abandoned common sense.

Settle down buddy boy!!! I simply forgot he had a U.S. visa and was not a U.S. citizen. Don't get your panties in a bunch shirley!!!

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Think about this one; We have a president that is currently authorizing the assination of a US citizen in Yemen ( death by drone) for being a suspected Al Qaeda ring leader and organizer-- no due process, just hunt him down and kill him in another sovereign country. And at the same time we have a president who insists that the underwear bomber ( a non citizen) rank and file soldier of Al Qaeda be afforded all the consititutional rights of a US citizen and be allowed the right to be lawyered up! What's wrong with this picture? O what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive! JR

Apples and oranges JR. I think because the father tried to warn the U.S. embassy, he is currently in the U.S., and I believe he is very young...we are using kid gloves. There is a world wide media circus around this...so, it will be handled very delicately for now. I think he will ultimately pay very dearly for what he has done. I think if there is a plea deal...it will be no death penalty for all the information in the guys whole head. If he gets away with life in prison...but, gives up the farm, we may learn a few things for the future.
Now, who is not thinking outside the box my friend? That is a knee jerk reaction by you...and done very quickly. This just happened, and you are all ready to jump on Obama before all the facts are known. I wonder if you did this for bush after 9-11?? You remember, when he ignored all the documented warnings...including those from the Clinton administration?? At least Obama didn't stare into the camera like a frightened deer for 5 minutes before moving (here it is in pictures and video, for your enjoyment. This is the guy who is tough on terror?? He looks like he is ready to wet himself!!! But, I know...same story...bush is NOT your guy...LOL!!! Nope...no republicans here who voted for bush..not a one!!! The conservatives on this site really have a comedy routine going at this point. Stay libertarians..that way you cannot be held accountable for anything you say or do. For or against bush or Obama...does not matter, because your candidate is completely unknown. Like I said before...the giants are playing dallas, and the people here are rooting for the knicks!!! Laughable!!
The Memory Hole > 5-Minute Video of George W. Bush on the Morning of 9/11 )

Give it time...the underwear terrorist will get what he has coming to him.

[JasPR]

This is a weak response on your part Brutus. The facts ARE in, you are just not up to speed on them yet.

The cleric IS a US citizen, he preached in Virginia. He left the country and has been a recruiter out of Yemen. He is the one who counciled the Fort Hood shooter. He is a citizen and twice we've missed him now with drone attacks.
The Underwear bomber is a Nigerian and not a US citizen. He has been arrested and has lawyered up. He is going through the US court system as if a US citizen.
You seem to be weaving a script for how the court room drama will play out based on what?? I can tell you on the other front, that US cleric will soon be in pieces all over the Yemen desert. That's an easier one to predict. He's a marked man.

the point of this is that there is not logical or consistant approach to any of this as the current president gets pulled kicking and dragging towards the old Bush position. The hypocracy and contradictions boggle the mind. But in the end , good for him.

so were am I jumping to conclusions?
And again, ENOUGH with the stroll down memory lane-- I'm not a bush fan, as I already said----
Now is now, then was then. JR