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Thread: JR vindicated on warming

  1. #1221
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    New Study Thoroughly Debunks Global Warming, Will Media Notice? | NewsBusters.org

    In the Journal Nature no less
    Shush up..... Maybe nobody will notice.....
    hey larry, certainly they won't notice and would consider that too minor to upset settled science. It is settled already-- as in 'never to be changed or looked at again' science. We've debated it enough they say.
    Liberal science-- as we wish it to be
    true science-- were the evidence takes us

  2. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    New Study Thoroughly Debunks Global Warming, Will Media Notice? | NewsBusters.org

    In the Journal Nature no less
    Shush up..... Maybe nobody will notice.....
    I think that NewsBuster's use of the phrase "thoroughly debunks" (global warming) is a pretty significant exaggeration. The actual authors of the cited journal article -- not the authors of the article about the article -- seem to be taking a pretty conservative stance. At any rate, their original work -- based on very sophisticated computer modeling using real tree-ring growth data as input -- would support the idea of a sort of periodic oscillation of warmer/cooler cycles over wide spans of time. This assertion indeeds challenges the too-often-quoted idea that the "earth just keeps getting warmer."

    This is a little above my pay grade to try and explain in any detail, but this link to the actual journal article abstract seemed to work, in case anyone is interested:

    Orbital forcing of tree-ring data : Nature Climate Change : Nature Publishing Group

  3. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
    I think that NewsBuster's use of the phrase "thoroughly debunks" (global warming) is a pretty significant exaggeration. The actual authors of the cited journal article -- not the authors of the article about the article -- seem to be taking a pretty conservative stance. At any rate, their original work -- based on very sophisticated computer modeling using real tree-ring growth data as input -- would support the idea of a sort of periodic oscillation of warmer/cooler cycles over wide spans of time. This assertion indeeds challenges the too-often-quoted idea that the "earth just keeps getting warmer."

    This is a little above my pay grade to try and explain in any detail, but this link to the actual journal article abstract seemed to work, in case anyone is interested:

    Orbital forcing of tree-ring data : Nature Climate Change : Nature Publishing Group
    I come from another point of view Paul-- are people so stupid as to not be able to see the difference between weather and local climates vs the earth's climate?? Or are they so cynical that they think they can use these shell game tactics to confuse the stupid amongst us?

    Now we are having a drought in the south west. And as predicted, the warmers say this is a 'sign' from god ( mother nature) that the end is near.
    And by extension that 'cars' are causing it by their release of carbon dioxide. And ironically the 'greenies' never mention plants as a cure! But I digress--

    So back in the 1920s-30s the midwest and south west went through a five year drought. Indeed, the area was referred to as the 'dust bowl'.
    At the time, Ford was making cars on a mass production level and the nuimbers climbed in the dust belt areas into the thousands. yet the drought ended!
    Today there are an estimated 600 million cars in the world!! 600 million! Yet the drought of 2012 is just beginning.
    And as those numbers climbed from 1911 onward, the drought came and went. It was later understood that droughts and no rotation of crops was a one two punch to dry and create dusts storms. A natural and unnatural combination that really, time and nature corrected- and it had nothing to do with SUVs or politics. In fact, the cars of those days spit out tons of material in that black smoke. The drivers even wore glasses to keep the dust and fumes out of their eyes !!!
    So now we have many many cars. And we have a drought again-- but no dust bowl. The linkage is weak and for the stupid to ponder.

    But I digress----- JR

  4. #1224
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting up the other link Paul. I think that one was also linked up in the NewsBusters piece, but there were several sourcing links there so I may be mistaken.

    What I gleaned from it was the fact that the tree ring studies they posted were actually complete and honest, rather than cherry picked anomalies like those tiny few the warmers tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes with. Honest science always gets my vote as it has no agenda other than the discovery of fact.

    JR, as you know I live in the middle of the "Dust Bowl". We are currently experiencing a drought, but it is interrupted from time to time by torrential rains here and there. On our way back from the AKCA KHA Wet Lab we drove through several driving rain storms in the New Mexico desert and the Texas panhandle. All signs of "Climate Change" no doubt

    The problem with all of this is, I've lived here for 30 years. I've experience droughts and floods, El Nino and La Nina cycles, Record heat, Record cold, no crops, abundant crops... That is the way the "weather" is around here, and it always has been. A few years ago it was so dry we had nonstop wildfires sweeping across the state daily. Rural fire departments were literally going broke and the firemen were resorting to using their personal credit cards to buy gasoline and diesel for the trucks as their budgeted coffers ran dry. One year later we shattered all previous records for rainfall...

    One of the most forgotten precursors to the "Dust Bowl" era was the loss of vegetation. The westward movement included the de-nuding of much of the plains of native grasses as the ground was plowed and planted with grain and cotton (encouraged by the Federal Government). Land "reclamation" for agriculture left the soil vulnerable to erosion, and that is how the "dust" became so easily airborne during what was otherwise a very ordinary "dry spell". Restoring much of the land to grass pasture and the advent of irrigation solved most of the problem eventually, but the "dry spell" had to end on its own, again, just like it always does.

    The AGW crowd can spare me the drama. Fear is very profitable for those who market it well, and the marketplace has been pretty "ripe for the picking" of late.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  5. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    Thanks for posting up the other link Paul. I think that one was also linked up in the NewsBusters piece, but there were several sourcing links there so I may be mistaken.

    What I gleaned from it was the fact that the tree ring studies they posted were actually complete and honest, rather than cherry picked anomalies like those tiny few the warmers tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes with. Honest science always gets my vote as it has no agenda other than the discovery of fact.

    JR, as you know I live in the middle of the "Dust Bowl". We are currently experiencing a drought, but it is interrupted from time to time by torrential rains here and there. On our way back from the AKCA KHA Wet Lab we drove through several driving rain storms in the New Mexico desert and the Texas panhandle. All signs of "Climate Change" no doubt

    The problem with all of this is, I've lived here for 30 years. I've experience droughts and floods, El Nino and La Nina cycles, Record heat, Record cold, no crops, abundant crops... That is the way the "weather" is around here, and it always has been. A few years ago it was so dry we had nonstop wildfires sweeping across the state daily. Rural fire departments were literally going broke and the firemen were resorting to using their personal credit cards to buy gasoline and diesel for the trucks as their budgeted coffers ran dry. One year later we shattered all previous records for rainfall...

    One of the most forgotten precursors to the "Dust Bowl" era was the loss of vegetation. The westward movement included the de-nuding of much of the plains of native grasses as the ground was plowed and planted with grain and cotton (encouraged by the Federal Government). Land "reclamation" for agriculture left the soil vulnerable to erosion, and that is how the "dust" became so easily airborne during what was otherwise a very ordinary "dry spell". Restoring much of the land to grass pasture and the advent of irrigation solved most of the problem eventually, but the "dry spell" had to end on its own, again, just like it always does.

    The AGW crowd can spare me the drama. Fear is very profitable for those who market it well, and the marketplace has been pretty "ripe for the picking" of late.
    well exactly! That is your problem Larry, you are aware and educated on the subject, have strong powers of observation and a brain. You are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to settled politicial based science.
    May I suggest- more paint fumes, less in depth reading and a few progressive work shops. JR

  6. #1226
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Who'da thunk it

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/wo...pagewanted=all

    CHILLING EFFECT

    Profits on Carbon Credits Drive Output of a Harmful Gas

    Qilai Shen for The New York Times
    A view of a coolant-producing factory in Jiangsu Province, China. Some manufacturers of gases used in air-conditioning and refrigeration have earned millions by accumulating emissions credits from the destruction of an obscure waste gas normally released as a byproduct. The credits are then resold on international markets.

    By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL and ANDREW W. LEHREN

    Published: August 8, 2012 143 Comments







    Multimedia


    Graphic
    Subsidies for a Global Warming Gas




    Chilling Effect

    Articles in this series describe the impact of the rising demand for coolant gases, a growing contributor to global warming.








    Greenhouse gases were rated based on their power to warm the atmosphere. The more dangerous the gas, the more that manufacturers in developing nations would be compensated as they reduced their emissions.

    But where the United Nations envisioned environmental reform, some manufacturers of gases used in air-conditioning and refrigeration saw a lucrative business opportunity.
    They quickly figured out that they could earn one carbon credit by eliminating one ton of carbon dioxide, but could earn more than 11,000 credits by simply destroying a ton of an obscure waste gas normally released in the manufacturing of a widely used coolant gas. That is because that byproduct has a huge global warming effect. The credits could be sold on international markets, earning tens of millions of dollars a year.
    That incentive has driven plants in the developing world not only to increase production of the coolant gas but also to keep it high — a huge problem because the coolant itself contributes to global warming and depletes the ozone layer. That coolant gas is being phased out under a global treaty, but the effort has been a struggle.
    So since 2005 the 19 plants receiving the waste gas payments have profited handsomely from an unlikely business: churning out more harmful coolant gas so they can be paid to destroy its waste byproduct. The high output keeps the prices of the coolant gas irresistibly low, discouraging air-conditioning companies from switching to less-damaging alternative gases. That means, critics say, that United Nations subsidies intended to improve the environment are instead creating their own damage.
    The United Nations and the European Union, through new rules and an outright ban, are trying to undo this unintended bonanza. But the lucrative incentive has become so entrenched that efforts to roll it back are proving tricky, even risky.
    China and India, where most of the 19 factories are, have been resisting mightily. The manufacturers have grown accustomed to an income stream that in some years accounted for half their profits. The windfall has enhanced their power and influence. As a result, many environmental experts fear that if manufacturers are not paid to destroy the waste gas, they will simply resume releasing it into the atmosphere.
    A battle is brewing.
    Disgusted with the payments, the European Union has announced that as of next year it will no longer accept the so-called waste gas credits from companies in its carbon trading system — by far the largest in the world — essentially declaring them counterfeit currency. That is expected to erode their value, but no one is sure by how much.
    “Consumers in Europe want to know that if they’re paying for carbon credits, they will have good environmental effects — and these don’t,” Connie Hedegaard, the European commissioner for climate action, said in an interview.
    Likewise, the United Nations is reducing the number of credits the coolant companies can collect in future contracts. But critics say the revised payment schedule is still excessive and will have little immediate effect, since the subsidy is governed by long-term contracts, many of which do not expire for years.
    Even raising the possibility of trimming future payments “was politically hard,” said Martin Hession, the immediate past chairman of the United Nations Clean Development Mechanism’s executive board, which awards the credits. China and India both have representatives on the panel, and the new chairman, Maosheng Duan, is Chinese.
    Carbon trading has become so essential to companies like Gujarat Fluorochemicals Limited, which owns a coolant plant in this remote corner of Gujarat State in northwest India, that carbon credits are listed as a business on the company Web site. Each plant has probably earned, on average, $20 million to $40 million a year from simply destroying waste gas, says David Hanrahan, the technical director of IDEAcarbon, a leading carbon market consulting firm. He says the income is “largely pure profit.”
    And each plant expects to be paid. Some Chinese producers have said that if the payments were to end, they would vent gas skyward. Such releases are illegal in most developed countries, but still permissible in China and India.
    As the United Nations became involved in efforts to curb climate change in the last 20 years, it relied on a scientific formula: Carbon dioxide, the most prevalent warming gas, released by smokestacks and vehicles, is given a value of 1. Other industrial gases are assigned values relative to that, based on their warming effect and how long they linger. Methane is valued at 21, nitrous oxide at 310. HFC-23, the waste gas produced making the world’s most common coolant — which is known as HFC-22 — is near the top of the list, at 11,700.
    The United Nations used the values to calibrate exchange rates when it began issuing carbon credits in 2005 under the Clean Development Mechanism. That system grants companies that reduce emissions in the developing world carbon credits, which they are then free to sell on global trading markets. Buyers of the credits include power plants that need to offset emissions that exceed European limits, countries buying offsets to comply with the Kyoto Protocol — an international environmental treaty — and some environmentally conscious companies that voluntarily offset their carbon footprint.
    Since the United Nations program began, 46 percent of all credits have been awarded to the 19 coolant factories, in Argentina, China, India, Mexico and South Korea. Two Russian plants receive carbon credits for destroying HFC-23 under a related United Nations program.
    “I was a climate negotiator, and no one had this in mind,” said David Doniger of the Natural Resources Defense Council. “It turns out you get nearly 100 times more from credits than it costs to do it. It turned the economics of the business on its head.”
    Destroying the waste gas is cheap and simple, but it is hard to know exactly how much any one company has earned from doing so, since the market price for carbon credits has varied considerably with demand — from about $9 to nearly $40 per credit — and they can be sold at a discount through futures contracts.
    The production of coolants was so driven by the lure of carbon credits for waste gas that in the first few years more than half of the plants operated only until they had produced the maximum amount of gas eligible for the carbon credit subsidy, then shut down until the next year, United Nations reports said. The plants also used inefficient manufacturing processes to generate as much waste gas as possible, said Samuel LaBudde of theEnvironmental Investigation Agency, an organization based in Washington that has long spearheaded a campaign against what he called “an incredibly perverse subsidy.”
    Michael Wara, a law professor at Stanford University, has calculated that in years when carbon credits were trading at high prices and coolant was dirt-cheap because of the oversupply, companies were earning nearly twice as much from the credits as from producing the coolant itself.
    The United Nations, recognizing the temptation for companies to jump into the lucrative business, has refused since 2007 to award carbon credits to any new factories destroying the waste gas. And last November, it announced that in contract renewals, factories could claim credits for waste gas equivalent only to 1 percent of their coolant production, down from 3 percent. The United Nations believes that eliminates the incentive to overproduce, said Mr. Hession, the former Clean Development Mechanism board chairman.
    Even with these adjustments, credits for destroying waste gas this year remain the most common type in the United Nations system, which rewards companies for reducing all types of warming emissions. Eighteen percent of credits in 2012 will go to the 19 coolant plants, compared with 12 percent to 2,372 wind power plants and 0.2 percent for 312 solar projects for the carbon dioxide emissions avoided by the clean energy they produce.
    In India, coolant plants received about half of the United Nations carbon credits awarded to companies in that country, for destroying their waste gas, during the system’s first five years. They accrued the power and money to fight efforts to roll back the subsidy.
    Compared with Indian representatives, Chinese diplomats have shown greater willingness at international meetings to consider altering the subsidy for waste gas credits, said Stephen O. Andersen, a former United States Environmental Protection Agency official who is now with the Institute for Governance and Sustainable Development in Washington. That is because China has a more centrally controlled economy and because it is developing an industry based on newer coolants. “It’s easier for them to put the national interest before the interest of one manufacturing sector,” he said.
    A bigger question is just how much the European Union’s decision to disallow, as of next year, the waste gas credits in its immense carbon trading system will decrease their value.
    Banks and companies holding such credits have been rushing to cash them in or sell them. And the potential devaluation of the carbon credits has an impact in other industrialized nations, since the carbon credit projects involve foreign sponsors and investors, who sometimes received carbon credits in exchange for services or financing.
    The Gujarat project was financed by Rabobank of the Netherlands and the Sumitomo Corporation of Japan.
    A coolant factory in Monterrey, Mexico, that receives carbon credits is 49 percent owned by Honeywell. Goldman Sachs bought many of its carbon credits.
    Such credits are likely to have some continued value, because they can be used in other environmental programs that allow their use, like voluntary ones through which companies offset the emissions generated by having a conference or travelers opt to pay a fee to offset the emissions from an airplane flight.
    Mr. LaBudde, of the Environmental Investigation Agency, who has long campaigned against the subsidy, said he hoped that no one would buy these “toxic” credits that “have no place in carbon markets” and that they would quickly disappear. In its latest annual report, Gujarat Fluorochemicals acknowledged that its carbon credits “may not have a significant market” starting next year because European companies have previously been their primary buyers.
    Mr. Hanrahan, of IDEAcarbon, said that the credits could, at the very least, be sold at a low price to traders who see the possibility for marginal profit in a way similar to the market for junk bonds. Even if all the proposals to make the carbon trade far less valuable succeeded, the 19 factories certified to generate carbon credits by destroying the waste gas could earn $1 billion from that business over the next eight years, according to projections by IDEAcarbon.
    And even as the economics shift, one big environmental question remains: Without some form of inducement, will companies like Gujarat Fluorochemicals continue to destroy the waste gas HFC-23? Already, a small number of coolant factories in China that did not qualify for the United Nations carbon credits freely vent this dangerous chemical. And atmospheric levels are rapidly rising.

    Elisabeth Rosenthal reported from Gujarat State, India, and Andrew W. Lehren from New York.

  7. #1227
    Daihonmei
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    Hey! Mitt Roney was in my office building today! With a LOT of secret service before he arrived! He was there to see a hedge fund that voted heavily for Obama last time around. The rumor is the boys on the 'second floor' gave him a 5 million dollar donation! Saw him in the common area and he waved to all of us on the fourth floor-- very cool! JR

  8. #1228
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    This still is my favorite 'outside' thread. Not surprising as I was sensing a perversion in 'ecology' education back in the Rutgers U days during the last 'ice age' alarms. Back then I subscribed to all the nature magazines -- wildlife and ecology minded mags slowly turned into activist rags that twisted every discovery study and research into something about man destroying the forests, the land, the water etc. I know back then they this was going to a trend in politics that would walk hand in hand with peace love and rock'n roll! The pot smoking stopped with most and the hair got cut the 'inner hippy' lives on within our baby boomer politicians.
    Anyone see the lastest articles on Algore? Even Huffington ran one ( albeit with a nice liberal spin in the closing). The point of all these articles published in the last 72 hours is that AlGore a VERY rich man. 50 times what he was worth when VP. How? This thread is 2 years old and the one proceeding it is 3 years old. You will find the answer there-- he worded the 'movement' like a pro and trading in stocks overseas can net a criminal type millions. That con regarding the trading of 'air' futures is such a brilliant racket and the organizers took their lobbyist Gore along for the most profitable ride. The average person is OBLIVIOUS to the entire plan, the exchanges and the unholy alliance between traders and politicians. Gore is in it up to his hip boots ( or is that money he is rolling in? ) JR

  9. #1229
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Creepy new Obama ad

    maybe JR hasn't been vindicated.
    The Future Children Project - YouTube

  10. #1230
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzyfish View Post
    maybe JR hasn't been vindicated.
    The Future Children Project - YouTube
    Great old propaganda technique! Old as the hills actually! Good old Hitler used this alot with kids singing endlessly about the motherland and her superiority over other races-- all with beautiful children of blonde hair and sparkeling eyes image.
    Propagandists morphed to publicists and spokes people often take the same extreme emotional manipulations today to sway the naive and the sheep thinker-- here's a few you might be amazed by--- Hail to the Fuhrer Obama: Children sing his praise - YouTube



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