unpacking koi methods

[keokoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ryan S. Joe, I'm wondering if that is b/c the Koi you help unpack are packed much tighter than what hobbiest typically recieve from dealers. I test the water and make the decision based on that. Those little dip tests are not extremely accurate but give you enough guidance. If there is any significant amount of ammonia I would not mix any pond water with bag water. For example my momo tosai came in at 0-.25ammonia, 6.8PH, ~300KH, ~300GH. Were mixed with pond water at 7.6ph, 180kh, 50gh.

Yeah that is true they are a bit tighter but not by much but also have more travel time.

Have you ever tested the ammonia after you mix both?

Joe

[Doug Ward]

One thing is for damn sure.
I'll be printing a sheet to pack with every fish I ship from now on !!!.

Low PH to Higher PH = No problem. If you have crappy water with a terribly low PH you need to ask your supplier what his PH normally is and adjust your Q tank before arrival.
If you're like most of the planet.. between 7 and 9 dont worry about it.

Hardness means nothing.

Low temp water to a warmer q tank = no problem, Toss them in !
If your water is colder than the bag.. float them a good long time... 30 minutes or so.

Mixing bag water with your water, is idiocy and can be highly toxic.If you have water in the bag with a likely PH of 6 -6.5 and mix it,50/50 with PH 8.5 - 9 ? Death.

Dipping a freshly transported fish in ANYTHING is idiocy.Dont salt the q tank either until you scrape for parasites.. Allot of goofs have their Q tank salted up at .3 or .5. Real cute if you find a bug and need to use Formalin...

Empty the bag into a bowl, pick up , or net the fish ( I do it by hand so I can look for problems), put them in the Qtank, cover it and walk away.

Take a peek the next day and toss a tiny bit of food in to make sure they are active.
Cover.
Walk away.
Day three toss a little food and if they react well ( like sharks) uncover them and " maybe" break out the microscope, if you see something that doesn't seem right.
If I dont " see" anything I might not even scope them until near the end of the quarantine period.

The most critical part of unpacking is to get them out of that nasty shipping water and into perfect water as quick as possible.
Mixing is a death wish and putting a warm koi into cold water is a death wish.
If somehow the bag water has a PH of 8 -9 ( like moving a fish across town) and you have a PH of 6- 6.8 or so You could have some bit of a problem and you should raise the PH up to 7.5 or so before tossing them in.. That would be an extremely rare scenrio but it happened to me once... years ago.

I move a couple fish ( 140 Jumbo's) from Lauderdale, that were in a pond with a PH over nine, and moved them to a tank ( 36 by 36 feet) with a PH of 6.8.. It didn't kill them but boy were they red and stressed out for a couple of days.. The big butterflies fins turned blood red in minutes..

King Kong.. ask Phil Maraccini about that weekend ...WHEW...

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by Doug Ward Dipping a freshly transported fish in ANYTHING is idiocy.

With all due respect, this is excerpted from a Brady Brandwood post:

Tosai stress easily so scraping them is truly crazy!!! Imagine the stress involved in this,... and also imagine the huge hole you've opened up in the slime coat with the glass slide from the scrape!!! Also, gill snips are barbaric! Bombarding them with chemical after chemical WILL kill them! USE SALT! We've had some sort of bad press lately proclaiming salt is useless,... it is very helpful, and very safe and effective.

Use salt as a dip - 4 cups of rock or solar salt per 10 gallons of pond water in a Koi tub - put the fish in this dip for 30 seconds, then take it out and back into fresh pond water. Do this with any new fish before putting them into your quarantine,... and do this if you see your new tosai is not feeling well. This is a safe simple way to "fix" or cure most of the issues many have described here on the board.

The full text can be referenced at:

http://koiphen.com/forums/showthread...1&page=4&pp=10

Oh, it's post #37 in a rather long, rambling thread.

[junglegeorge12]

I think treating them with anything unless they are obviously in deathly ill condition is unwise and will cause undue stress. Lots of hobbiests have a routine they have felt was good for years. If it works, ok, but stress can cause a weaker immune system to future problems and illnesses, loss of color and lustre, cause heart attacks, and possibly take years off of the koi's life.



So for me, the most stress free way is the best way. Salting and meds always cause some additional stress.



How do you see that issue JR, what do you do with fresh arrivals before putting them in with the rest of the gang? How do you determine which of your ponds to put them in? Just curious.

[l113892]

Having 0.1 percent salt in your quarantine system is okay. That amount of salt with protect the fish from Nitrite intake and allow the fish to move through the water with less resistence. A salt dip is crazy. Mixing pond water with bag water to acclimate is crazy. Float the bag to bring temperatures close together, pour the fish and bag water into a blue tub and then lift the fish from the tub by hand into the quarantine tank. Make sure your quarantine tank is covered as new arrivals are more likely to jump. Low light for a few days to a week is good.

[keokoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 Having 0.1 percent salt in your quarantine system is okay. That amount of salt with protect the fish from Nitrite intake and allow the fish to move through the water with less resistence. A salt dip is crazy. Mixing pond water with bag water to acclimate is crazy. Float the bag to bring temperatures close together, pour the fish and bag water into a blue tub and then lift the fish from the tub by hand into the quarantine tank. Make sure your quarantine tank is covered as new arrivals are more likely to jump. Low light for a few days to a week is good.

This I can agree with... Thanks Mike!

[bekko]

By the time I drive a bag to my house, the water is always about the same temperature as the quarantine pond. You can feel the bottom of the bag, then feel the pond water and know if it's close enough. I bite off the rubber band and pour everything into the pond. The dilution factor will negate the bad water quality in the bag. If there are cooties in the shipping water, then there are cooties in the water dripping from the fish as you pick it up to move it. That's why its quarantine.

-stevehopkins

[Doug Ward]

Did I type the work "koi" after butterfly ?
If you'll READ What I said " I moved a bunch of FISH.
The Butterflies fins turned red.
There were plecostamus in the tank too ( please dont make the GOOFY assumption that I call Pleco Koi.

Be careful with the salt.
It also causes high blood pressure.

Congrats on recognizing yourself as a goof. I'm a B00B.
Congratz on your placebo effect of having salt kill your parasite... or perhaps your microscope and dsample collection skills skills are limited

Quote: Originally Posted by MUISHOND To Mister Douglas Ward , Your statements: (1) “If you have crappy water with a terribly low PH you need to ask your supplier what his PH normally is and adjust your Q tank before arrival” (2)“Allot of goofs have their Q tank salted up at .3 or .5. Real cute if you find a bug and need to use Formalin...” (3)“If somehow the bag water has a PH of 8 -9 ( like moving a fish across town) and you have a PH of 6- 6.8 or so You could have some bit of a problem and you should raise the PH up to 7.5 or so before tossing them in.. That would be an extremely rare scenario but it happened to me once... years ago.” (4)“I moved a couple fish ( 140 Jumbo's) from Lauderdale, that were in a pond with a PH over nine, and moved them to a tank ( 36 by 36 feet) with a PH of 6.8.. It didn't kill them but boy were they red and stressed out for a couple of days.. The big butterflies fins turned blood red in minutes..” First, how can you call a Butterfly (Longfin) a Koi? I would like to answer as follow on your statements: Statement 1. Use salt! Statement 2. I am one of those goofs!……………..Use salt! Statement 3. Use salt …………………..that’s what you should have done! Statement 4. Salt help for stress. I also moved some Jumbos, from about 270km. I placed them in a 6000lt Q-pond, this pond was prepared the previous day and 3kg/1000lt was added. Two hours after they were placed in the Q-pond, and after a discussion between me and a friend, wondering if the Koi was stressed, a few food pellets was tossed in to the pond and guessed what? They ate the food in seconds…………………………no stress! Think again ………………………..Think salt! After the 5th and 8th day, 50% water changes was made and then the microscope came out and amazingly no parasites was found

[Valarc]

So, you're attacking Doug's unpacking advice by nitpicking his usage of a word, with your whopping two posts here at koi-bito. Ever heard of an "ad hominem" attack? If not, you should look it up - start by googling for "logical fallacies".

If you want to argue his salt statements fine - but leave out the "butterfly koi" nonsense, please.

Edit: I'm rather enjoying the discussion without the stupid wording attacks. I respect both Brady and Doug a great deal, and it's interesting to hear their two takes on the subject. I'd love to hear some others chime in as well. JR are you out there?

[Doug Ward]

Quote: Originally Posted by MUISHOND Hi Doug, I do not make any assuptions at all on your web-site:www.zkoi.com/koi for sale you do advertize them- Buttefly Koi! I did not add salt for the parasites, but for the stress, when is your next appointment with the ophthalmologist, I think you need new specs. Please read the last sentence again! If there would have been any parasites after the 8th day and after a 100% water change, only then the medication would have started

Listen up Shameeko... ( male reference)
Other than the " experts" that realize the " Longfin Indonesian river carp hybridz..AKA " butterfly? longfin " koi"..;..
Please , go to bed....
Most folks, other than " true expertzzZ, like yourself, refer to them as " butterfly koi"
I am sorry if you were offended by my inaccuracy on the true ID of this ornamental fish.

Now.
Go home and read some bookiezzz.
Have a good day .
Dr JohnsBoob mayhire you for his " team"
GBA_stan
Figger that one out