Leroy Taba on the Hawaii Goldfish and Carp Association

[koicluboftheair]

Ron Goforth, ZNA district chairman wrote, “Perhaps not all American koi enthusiasts share my feelings; in fact, I know many who do not, who feel that some of us make the hobby “too Japanese” and that we should work to establish “American standards of koi”. To these good folks I can only say that it is a Japanese hobby to begin with;they invented it, set the rules and standards for it, and although some may disagree, I for my part feel that it is no longer the same hobby when those rules and standards become changed because we either haven’t learned to, or don’t choose to understand them. For my part, I prefer to remain with the original emphasis placed by the hobby’s creators---“
http://www.znaska.org/Why%20ZNA.htm

[schildkoi]

John,
Niether party is wrong. Its apples and oranges. there were hobbyists organizations in Japan dating back prior to the ZNA organizing under its curent name in about 1968. Taba could very well mean that they are the oldest , still in existanace under their same name? And reading Tabe, it was formed primarily by Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands and would still add credance to Ron's point that the hobby is a Japanese hobby. I don't see a who's right nor who's wrong answer but that they are both correct?

Steve

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi John, Niether party is wrong. Its apples and oranges. there were hobbyists organizations in Japan dating back prior to the ZNA organizing under its curent name in about 1968. Taba could very well mean that they are the oldest , still in existanace under their same name? And reading Tabe, it was formed primarily by Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands and would still add credance to Ron's point that the hobby is a Japanese hobby. I don't see a who's right nor who's wrong answer but that they are both correct? Steve

I'm not so sure as, ",...it is a Japanese hobby to begin with;they invented it, set the rules and standards for it,..." according to Ron clearly implies Japan not Japanese Americans in Hawaii. Just as the Hawaiian Club has the distinction of being the oldest club it would seem then that they set the rules and standards. Interestingly, this all came about after Douglas Macarthur oversaw the occupation of Japan and establishment of a more democratic system from 1945-51. Who established the rules first set the standard. Whether or not the roots of koi-club-kichi is to be properly documented as in Hawaii or some pre-WWII Japanese imperial tradition is an important question to answer for a variety of reasons.

[schildkoi]

Forming a club does not mean you started the hobby. The "hobby" could actually be traced back to the rice farmers of the 1800s who collected the inbred carp. Or how about to when the emporeor was presented some as gifts in the early 1900s. Where do you think the Hawaiians of Japanese decent were first introduced to koi to begin with? Japan perhaps? And how does that make Ron Goforth wrong or even Taba? Nishikigoi are clearly the invention of the Japanese. For the life of me I cannot figure out how you come up with some of your "logic."

Steve

[koicluboftheair]

Words do have meaning and I appreciate literal intent in relation to facts and accuracy when evaluating something that I would care to publish. Consider again if you would, “…it is a Japanese hobby to begin with;they invented it, set the rules and standards for it,..." according to Ron. Steve consider again the part where Ron states, "set the rules and standards for it,..." Steve the logic here is related to reading, comprehension and fact checking. Surely you can appreciate this considering, “I would think that you would review your lateset article for KOI USA and double check for accuracy and notify the editor if it is good to go or not," Childers wrote.
http://koi-bito.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5132&page=2.

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Forming a club does not mean you started the hobby. The "hobby" could actually be traced back to the rice farmers of the 1800s who collected the inbred carp. Or how about to when the emporeor was presented some as gifts in the early 1900s. Where do you think the Hawaiians of Japanese decent were first introduced to koi to begin with? Japan perhaps? And how does that make Ron Goforth wrong or even Taba? Nishikigoi are clearly the invention of the Japanese. For the life of me I cannot figure out how you come up with some of your "logic." Steve

[Akai-San]

Without getting into the who's more accomplished in this and that...

I along with many others in the hobby enjoy learning about the origins and developments of nishikigoi...(we just like talking about koi). However, hobby clubs aside, I'm much more focused in enjoying the koi that I have and the new friends that I get to make. Whether at the AJS or some friends pond, my enjoyment comes from spending time with our finned and two-legged friends.

Take a small step back, think about the first time you really looked at these wonderful creatures. The way they swim through the waters current and play with each other. Quietly and effortlessly darting and gliding from place to place. Can you feel your heart-rate and blood pressure dropping? ...What was it that made you the "koi-aholic" that you are. It wasn't any club or association was it? Was it? Hahaha.

I don't think that one is a more right or more wrong as far as developing standards for koi in Japan or the US. Everyone will look at the same koi(s) differently...and interpretation of standards will differ with each individuals personal taste and or popular trend at that time. Much like tasting fine wine, each mouthfull is different. Bottom line is I enjoy and learn from each mouthful that I take. Makes me that much happier.

Everyone has their own reasons for entering a hobby. Bottom line is...its a "hobby" and it should be FUN.

[schildkoi]

Standards for koi come from competition, the koi show. Thes are the standards that determined which koi wins. the koi show has its origins in Japan, where they were invented, simple. Get it John? It has nothing to do with the age of a specific club. Koi show competitions existed before the Hawaiian club. and the two are not necessarily related. Try that for literal meanings.

Steve

[cppond]

I've wondered about that. Where was the first show and how were the standards set?

[koicluboftheair]

"Standards for koi come from competition, the koi show," Childers wrote.

"Thes are the standards that determined which koi wins. the koi show has its origins in Japan, where they were invented, simple. Get it John? It has nothing to do with the age of a specific club. Koi show competitions existed before the Hawaiian club. and the two are not necessarily related. Try that for literal meanings," Childers wrote.

Back to the quote Steve, "…it is a Japanese hobby to begin with; they invented it, set the rules and standards for it,..." according to Ron. It would seem you discount the fact that Japanese Americans had the first club according to what is gathered here in this thread. Do you likewise discount the possibility that Japanese Americans invented the hobby so far as it is organized in clubs such as AKCA and ZNA? Would you likewise discount the possibility that Japanese Americans "set the rules and standards" for the hobby so far as it is organized in clubs such as AKCA and ZNA?

Hold the personal attacks and answer the questions if you would.

[koicluboftheair]

So true. Most people enjoy the hobby outside of any involvement in a club, which I hope changes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Akai-San Without getting into the who's more accomplished in this and that... I along with many others in the hobby enjoy learning about the origins and developments of nishikigoi...(we just like talking about koi). However, hobby clubs aside, I'm much more focused in enjoying the koi that I have and the new friends that I get to make. Whether at the AJS or some friends pond, my enjoyment comes from spending time with our finned and two-legged friends. Take a small step back, think about the first time you really looked at these wonderful creatures. The way they swim through the waters current and play with each other. Quietly and effortlessly darting and gliding from place to place. Can you feel your heart-rate and blood pressure dropping? ...What was it that made you the "koi-aholic" that you are. It wasn't any club or association was it? Was it? Hahaha. I don't think that one is a more right or more wrong as far as developing standards for koi in Japan or the US. Everyone will look at the same koi(s) differently...and interpretation of standards will differ with each individuals personal taste and or popular trend at that time. Much like tasting fine wine, each mouthfull is different. Bottom line is I enjoy and learn from each mouthful that I take. Makes me that much happier. Everyone has their own reasons for entering a hobby. Bottom line is...its a "hobby" and it should be FUN.