Judging San Diego Koi Show & Cash Awards

[schildkoi]

Quote: Greater understanding by asking difficult questions is the point here. Indeed, Frank and Nancy nor anyone else would likely enter a fish for a chance at a winning a $1000 or $10,000 possibly, but the point was rather how does accepting money at a show impact your ability to show elsewhere. I've seen written on this board instances where individuals selling greeting cards with koi on them (who knows if they made a profit?) for a small sum could not show according to some show rules. If their is no uniform standard across the hobby particularly a written one that is adherred to by all then for me to ask such questions protects the Franks and Nancy's of the hobby. Promoting greater understanding has positive results.

the problem is you always seem to fail to understand the answers. once again, above, how on earth is accepting an award, even monetary even remotely similar to selling koi or a koi related product? Apples and ornages, not the same thing....you understand that concept yet? Standard for what John? Awards or dealer status, again, not the same thing. There is a uniform guide for each club to use in determining dealer status, but each club is their own club and has the rights to modify as they see fit. The ZNA is one club with many chapters all operating under one set of rules, but still different and oftentimes even then interpreted differently by some clubs, get over it.

Do all states in the US have the same state laws? Nope.

How many times doe your questions need to be answered? The answers are the same each time but you just keep on going thinking that there must be another answer that you may agree with?

Steve

[koicluboftheair]

What I like or dislike has little bearing on what is. In fact, Bill Thompson in one of the interviews this coming week states (paraphrasing; full text coming) that AKCA needs to do more helping clubs organize to accomplish a variety of things such as publicity. Plus, he sees a role in AKCA taking a leadership position on political issues such as KHV, SVC, and VHS rules and legislation. Thus, if this is the direction of the future of AKCA then couldn't it likewise be said that I'm in agreement with its leadership? As for clubs making up their own rules that is terrific. Maybe like the map of koi shows across America we could have a koi club rules across America map where as with other such rules like possession of firearms it is helpful to know you get in a lot of trouble in New York for having something that is legal in another state. A better example might be that it is helpful knowing it is illegal to own koi in Maine. Bringing up such matters causes some people headaches, but it is all about promoting the hobby.

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth Then why don't you just say you don't like the fact that each club can make up its own rules and then list your reasons why you don't like it? I mean that is what its all about right? This is just a continuation of your "on-air" comments about AKCA being a bottom up org vs a top down org which is something you have mentioned in several threads.

[koicluboftheair]

“once again, above, how on earth is accepting an award, even monetary even remotely similar to selling koi or a koi related product,” Childers wrote.
Here you quote an interpretation of a rule apparently suggesting its interpretation is universal. Later you comment that rules are interpreted differently.

“Standard for what John? Awards or dealer status, again, not the same thing,” Childers wrote.
As you note further down there is no rule, but guides that can be interpreted however a club chooses.

“There is a uniform guide for each club to use in determining dealer status, but each club is their own club and has the rights to modify as they see fit,” Childers wrote.\
A guide isn’t a rule.

“The ZNA is one club with many chapters all operating under one set of rules, but still different and often times even then interpreted differently by some clubs, get over it,” Childers wrote.
Rules, interpretation, get over it you say? I shouldn’t ask questions about them, but get over it you say? Can I quote you on that Steve Childers?

“Do all states in the US have the same state laws? Nope,” Childers wrote.
Indeed, they do have many of the same laws with congruent standards and overlapping local and federal jurisdicitions. Where legislators representing their constituencies create diametrically opposed laws they are written down and enforced by law enforcement and interpreted by the courts. In certain instances such as the Interstate Transportation Clause federal law and jurisdiction supercedes local and state law and authority. I’m one who believes laws and rules alike should be recognized and understood by those who come under the jurisdiction of those laws.

Have you ever read Harvard Law Professor Lon Fuller’s “Eight Ways to Fail to Make Law”? Fuller describes a scenario through a tale of a legislator and judge named Rex who tried to right a kingdom, but failed. The failures included: 1) failure to actually create specific written rules and rather use power to control proceedings on an ad hoc basis, 2) where there was to be a rule it was not publicized in order that those effected could be expected to use it as a guide for behavior, 3) retroactively penalizing participants for what was previously not against the rules (or publicized), 4) Where there were supposedly rules they were not understandable, 5) contradictory rulings where one could not be compliant, 6) beyond the ability of subjects to comply, 7)frequent changes in rules, 8) where announced the supposed rule was not similarly administered. While this scenario is a bit more complicated than your analogy it is applicable to any organization that by definition might expect to succeed to its utmost potential.

“How many times doe your questions need to be answered? The answers are the same each time but you just keep on going thinking that there must be another answer that you may agree with,” Childers wrote.

Excuse me? If you tire of responding to specific questions I’m asking in a thread about the San Diego show, which as a quite unique set of circumstances please stop trying to answer them.

Plus, you noticeably failed to provide comment in follow up after I provided you the affiliation of the head judge. Will the show then run by Shinkokai rules?

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi the problem is you always seem to fail to understand the answers. once again, above, how on earth is accepting an award, even monetary even remotely similar to selling koi or a koi related product? Apples and ornages, not the same thing....you understand that concept yet? Standard for what John? Awards or dealer status, again, not the same thing. There is a uniform guide for each club to use in determining dealer status, but each club is their own club and has the rights to modify as they see fit. The ZNA is one club with many chapters all operating under one set of rules, but still different and oftentimes even then interpreted differently by some clubs, get over it. Do all states in the US have the same state laws? Nope. How many times doe your questions need to be answered? The answers are the same each time but you just keep on going thinking that there must be another answer that you may agree with? Steve

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Indeed, showing koi that have won cash awards is an issue I'm inquiring about. Just as pond builders like koiczar have been questioned as to his status as a pro or non-pro there will doubtlessly be others. Not only are the likes of Frank and NancyM effected, but the Central Florida Show in Orlando is using SKA's ZNA judging standard, which might be particularly sensitive to who can enter a show based on their interpretation of pro versus non-pro. Another aspect that I questioned, which has not be commented on as of yet is the standard by which the show will be judged separate from the later impact of the prize money. A politically incorrect way of asking could be will the show have a high or low judging standard considering the diversity of judging standards available tank side.

John
Exactly what are you trying to accomplish here? What do you know of me or my husband, regarding the koi hobby besides second hand information. My husband and I have devoted our time and energy to the hobby here in California. We travel to all the shows that invite us, in California, Arizona, Colorado. We are invited by the very same people you are talking about, AKCA judges. I have been down this road with others on this same subject. But I don't feel the need to defend my integrity or principals to you.

As Steve and Ray have already stated, each club has there own guidelines and rules. PERIOD

[koicluboftheair]

Nancy,
There are no personal attacks on you in this original mention of you and your husband. If there is point it out to me. It is rather a defense of those that would show in San Diego and elsewhere against loose interpretations of rules or guidelines where there seems actually not to be much of anything written. The San Diego Show will be a great one and as in many other instances it sets the standard for others. This standard includes cash awards and four Shinkoikai judges. I want to know how it impacts the rest of the clubs and what messages and lessons can be learned.

This was the original quote:
"Indeed, showing koi that have won cash awards is an issue I'm inquiring about. Just as pond builders like koiczar have been questioned as to his status as a pro or non-pro there will doubtlessly be others. Not only are the likes of Frank and NancyM effected, but the Central Florida Show in Orlando is using SKA's ZNA judging standard, which might be particularly sensitive to who can enter a show based on their interpretation of pro versus non-pro.

Another aspect that I questioned, which has not be commented on as of yet is the standard by which the show will be judged separate from the later impact of the prize money. A politically incorrect way of asking could be will the show have a high or low judging standard considering the diversity of judging standards available tank side."

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. John Exactly what are you trying to accomplish here? What do you know of me or my husband, besides second hand information. My husband and I have devoted our time and energy to the hobby here in California. We travel to all the shows that invite us, in California, Arizona, Colorado. We are invited by the very same people you are talking about, AKCA judges. I have been down this road with others on this same subject. But I don't feel the need to defend my integrity or principals to you. As Steve and Ray have already stated, each club has there own guidelines and rules. PERIOD

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by koicluboftheair Nancy, There are no personal attacks on you in this original mention of you and your husband. If there is point it out to me. It is rather a defense of those that would show in San Diego and elsewhere against loose interpretations of rules or guidelines where there seems actually not to be much of anything written. The San Diego Show will be a great one and as in many other instances it sets the standard for others. This standard includes cash awards and four Shinkoikai judges. I want to know how it impacts the rest of the clubs and what messages and lessons can be learned. This was the original quote: "Indeed, showing koi that have won cash awards is an issue I'm inquiring about. Just as pond builders like koiczar have been questioned as to his status as a pro or non-pro there will doubtlessly be others. Not only are the likes of Frank and NancyM effected, but the Central Florida Show in Orlando is using SKA's ZNA judging standard, which might be particularly sensitive to who can enter a show based on their interpretation of pro versus non-pro. Another aspect that I questioned, which has not be commented on as of yet is the standard by which the show will be judged separate from the later impact of the prize money. A politically incorrect way of asking could be will the show have a high or low judging standard considering the diversity of judging standards available tank side."

John
Yes the San Diego show is a very good show, however it does not set any standard for any other clubs show. As for the judging standard, why would you think it would be impacted lower or even higher? ZNA SoCal uses ZNA, AKCA and Shinkokai judges and has used them for many years. This is not a first for this diversity of judges. As I recall when we last showed at San Diego, they had the same type of judges, ZNA, AKCA, Shinkokai, I personally feel that with having judges from all the different organizations can improve the judging, and also aide in learning.
I think the only thing San Diego has changed this year from previous years, is that they will be having the USA chapter of Shinkokai dealers handling all the fish in the show. Which is not something new for other clubs shows, since ZNA SoCAl always has the Shinkokai dealers handling there fish.

John
I really don't understand why, you have made so many threads regarding AKCA, ZNA, Dealers, Hobbiest Shows etc.. You say you are doing it for the good of the hobby, but every post brings up subjects that seem to try to hurt the organizations and the people within them, that you say you are trying to promote. Perhaps it is your strong words and style, but it seems to me that you are searching for something more than helping the hobby.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Another aspect that I questioned, which has not be commented on as of yet is the standard by which the show will be judged separate from the later impact of the prize money. A politically incorrect way of asking could be will the show have a high or low judging standard considering the diversity of judging standards available tank side."

Oh yeah, I did back on page 1, post #6

Quote: John, Juding standards are what they are, no high nor low. How those standards are interpreted may vary between groups and even between people within groups but that typically is an exception. As an example, hobbyist organization "judge for the day". Well that could mean something else for a breeder since they may way the future potentyial into the equation on the day verses the appearance at that given point in time. But again, the standards are what they are, most being developed originally from ZNA standards. Benching tends to be different amongst different organizations more than differences in the actually standards. As for Dealer verses hobbyists (not pro verses amatuer), the "line" is determined by each club based on thier own specific definition of such which may or may not coincide with an organizations guideline or definition.....after all, it is that clubs show. Once again, a Koi/owner that has won an award in the past does NOT make the individual a "dealer" which is where the line is drawn, not professional verses amatuer shower (if there is even such a thing). You seem to be attempting to draw corellations that don't exist. Steve

Is this another example of you not liking the answer so you will continue to ask it?

Steve

[Rich L]

I have a problem with the AKCA's unwillingness to establish a clear basic standard for Amateur/Professional status. I beleive my club has adapted one but there are others that want to side with an agressive dealor pair who have been trying to gain membership in our organization for 5 years now. They side up to every club leadership change, not just ours to try to influence the leaders. It looks like they may have done it this year. They undermined our club to serve their goals and manipulated another and left when they got what they wanted.

The trouble with parasites, like these, is they understand that the harm done now will all blow over and they will be back in the future when the old leadership has gone. So the need for keeping the AKCA organization amateur is very necessary.

At least a clear suggested standard would help eliminate the animosity and dirty politics I see now because we could try to configure the organization around that. Right now I feel the AKCA leaves us out to dry. Says what they think should be happening but doesn't even address conflicts with their organization. Just recently a dealor, who was also the club's president, was an official at their club's AKCA show.

Where does that leave us who try to respect the supposedly Amateur standards.

[Rich L]

This is a good string for me. I am beginning to understand the diffference between a professional and a prize winner at a show. But left to my own reasoning, I have rejected the thought at our own shows rather than find out later that we have turned some amateur into a 'professionsl'.

[koicluboftheair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rich L This is a good string for me. I am beginning to understand the diffference between a professional and a prize winner at a show. But left to my own reasoning, I have rejected the thought at our own shows rather than find out later that we have turned some amateur into a 'professionsl'.

Glad you are getting some value out of it Rich. It is easy for Steve, who on again off again claims here and there to be speaking as a judge, as editor of KOI USA, and then again on other occasions only for himself to characterize all the rules and guidelines as quite clear and obvious where written and unwritten while up to the 101 clubs to either adopt, develop and enforce or to disregard in their entirety. Such concrete foundations are surely the things great structures are built upon.