Growing the Hobby

[Lomaponder]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR By the way, Just recently, there was a 'professional' on another board telling a newbie that his tanks run a normal ORP of 400 and with low dose PP treatments the ORP runs up to 525-550 ( with LOW PP treatments!). That simple statement is so wrong and so inaccurate that it borders on being dangerous. This statement will go unchallenged as there is no one on that board sophisticated or experienced enough to understand or interpret what the individual is really seeing and doing. One thing is for sure, the fish are experiencing the abuse and some one will become the owner of those fish. Lets hope that biofouling of the probe ( oxygen released by PP, or actual biofilm) is at work or the wrong type reference fluid in the probe is being used. My point here is not to yet expose another bad dealer or embarrass the newbies responding in the affirmative to those typed words. But to say and show that every day, very misleading and bad information shows up on messsage boards and it is being 'learned' by isolated newbies all over the country. This level of bad info would never be found in print ( and if it was, there would be a rebuttal). And no organization would endorse what was written. The koi hobby is weaker for it and due to it's presence. Every day, people leave the hobby in disgust due to the fact that their personal experience was too hard. Bad information makes it even harder. In this respect, the internet as a subculture of learning can be a dangerous and misleading source. Now add the imaginary bonds of friendship and you have a group that defends bad information from the point of clan loyality. Fascinating sociological behavior, except for the poor fish . JR

A point well made JR. I wish the individuals I converse with on a daily basis would take the point you bring up here (in regards to what we see / read here on the internet) more to heart.

The internet information should be more as a starting point for the gathering of information, rather than THE point of information. I always advise them to use the old standard newspaper practice (at least it use to be IMHO) to check your sources and back-up the information with another reliable source.

Knowledge is power, but only if it is good knowledge. The other stuff could lead to "an embarrassing moment"

[JasPR]

That was very well said and very wise advice. JR

[Seefdro Tvneik]

JR, I want to eat your mind.......Very well said....I truly value your contributions here.

Although I do beleive the situation for the "isolated" koi keeper to be more unique than was perceived.

Another great aspect of this forum and others like it is that ideas are much more direct and yes there is more "false authority" being created as well........Although many people in "real life" situations tend to beat around the bush, and yes make poop up too. The woderful aspect of ((Bito) reading is that knowledge is much more direct, and there is an opportunity to think about it and debate it. I believe it's up to the individual to research it's validity.

If I was to ask you JR to interact with a live video feed do you believe our communication would be more "real"? This reality is the next wave of communication and will be EVERYWHERE on the web soon.....Give it 4 to 5 years....Hmmm.

Would you participate in a "Live feed" social koi web experiment if given the opportunity?

[111whalen]

All of you who do have not planned your weekend could attend the San Diego show for some real hands on experience. They would love to have you.
This thread, after starting so agressively and assaulting, has suddenly become eloquent. Nice posts from several contributors including some newbies. It seems to me that all sources of information can be good. Just be sure to check the background of the professors.

[mstrseed]

I have been involved with live voice communication with Koi enthusiasts for almost a year. It allows a better interaction as you can discern tones, laughter or detect changes in demeanor of people much easier. For those who find it more difficult to convey point with written words aid greatly as they can express thought easier.

This also does not eliminate physical contact but allows meetings to be held which allows a greater number of persons to attend for a fraction of the cost of being together.
By sending out hand outs prior to meeting if you have special guest speakers speaking on topics such as explaining Koi anatomy it is very beneficial to participants.

Then groups can come together at specified places to finalize discussions, agendas and plans or to continue more dialog.

[bone]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Daniel , of all the posts here, yours hits home as the most balanced and reasonable to me. I think the information on these message boards is great ( albeit only 50%-80% of the time accurate). But just as often, it is misleading and represents the level of the loudest newbie during a given time period. I've read some really shocking stuff on some of the boards. And always with a response from the newbie readers of great excitement and eagerness to 'try that'. And what I know at that moment is that none of my real life koi friends would entertain for a minute such a wacky idea. That tells me something. I'm currently writing a detailed article for one of the koi magazines. It should take me three or four days and maybe 6 hours of work- organization, fact checking and re-writes. Hopefully the finished product will be dead-accurate. But on Sunday mornings I ramble on NI for relaxation and the joy of sharing. And maybe I'm not as accurate? I'm not aiming to. Instead, I want to put my thoughts and opinions out there for conversation and feedback. Certainly when I give a lecture it is vetted and improved with each presentation. And Koi Kichi II took me a month of checking and rechecking to write my small part. What I do like about the boards like Koi Bito is the mystique and flavor the Japanese perspective brings to the hobby. I think the history and look into the world of the breeders captures the imagination of the person making a transition from 'pretty garden pond' to a world where Koi-carp are steeped in culture, history and exotic far east images. The hobbyist and hobby are definitely richer due to that exposure. So it would be silly for me to take a stance against internet message boards! It is a part of my everyday life. It is the comparison I am bringing up that in the end, as a social outlet or complete learning experience , highly favors real life experience. I have been to Japan many times. A few times I was part of a camera crew doing tapes for one of the koi production companies. On other occasions I was with the editors of koi specialty magazines taking shots beside the photographer who's same photos would appear in Rinko, NI , KOI USA, KOI CARP, BKKS magazine, KOI etc. It always struck me when I saw those photos and the associated articles that appeared in with text, that the ' real moment' was different than the portrayal in the glossy print. Maybe part marketing or maybe the fact that some things 'translate' differently in their passive distant form? In the end, there is nothing like personal experience. And in the end, this all depends on how much 'koi' you really want or need? It is such a deep subject with so many facets. For the serious koi student who wants to know everything about koi and koi keeping, time and multi-level exposure is necessary. And probably the only way to gain that all important PERSPECTIVE. I would certainly include some of these Message boards as a must have in that quest. Just as I would highly recommend certain books, magazines and LIVE chapter/club affiliations. If the koi pond and koi show/club interaction is the classroom , I'd characterize internet message boards maybe as extra reading or maybe a college correspondence course. And by the way, if there is no group around you, you can always start your own! AKCA offers a kit I believe? Best of luck to you Daniel , JR

Thank you JR. I would love to start a Koi club in my area of the state. As I become more experienced to fulfill a leadership role in a club and potential member participation is adequate you never know what the future holds. I do understand the potential and real danger of wrong or misleading information being presented on the internet boards. I have had to be skeptical about what I read. I have to do alot of research before I determine a subject has been addreesed factually. Alot of what I read is opinion and not fact. No doubt I have been misled before. But the more I learn the easier it is to wade through the bs.

Daniel

[schildkoi]

The internet, a double edged sword. Yeah, I know, much of what I am about to say has been said already but today I had yet another example. First off, the internet offers people an almost immediate response to questions. This is sometimes good and sometimes bad. The good part is that a question can be answered and a problem corrected immediately. The bad part is that the answer is wrong or not completely accurate and the quetioner's response is then misguided. Now this is NOT limited to the internet. There are many sources of information out there on koi and koi ponds. Again, some of it is good, some is bad. If we think about periodicals out their on the subject, there are very few "good" ones as it relates to the koi hobby. Yet there are many out there on watergardening that give the perceptions at tleast that the same principles apply....and they don't for the most part. The difference between the internet and other methods is that of time. often times one has time to check on the credibility of sources but in many cases people take information without regard to its source and act too quickly. Back in the early to mid 90s when the internet was really in its infancy, poeple would in fact travel to koi shows and other events to check on information. I know I did. After disasterous results attempting to utilize many of those watergardening type periodicals I took it upond myself to find credible sources. I searched out and found advanced hobbyists and listened. In the late 90s as the internet took hold I became amazed at the disporportionate amount of bad information being passed along on some web sites. Luckily I found NI. With a core group of advanced hobbyists, they "called" those on the carpet that attempted to pass along bad info. The Famous Lansing "e venom" was invented. Tom had (still has) a way of letting folks know where the rubber meets the road so to speak and backed it with science and fact.

Back in those days, NI and its regulars were called every name in the book by those who had been called to task. Yet, more and more of the principles that we think are second nature started to take hold elsewhere, including here on Bito. Yes, there are often times debates but fact based debate is always a good thing. Unfortunately many who don't have a leg to stand on get away from facts and then attempt to sway the debate in other manners. But I digress.

Just today, on another board, a relative newcomer was asking some questions about TPRs. In his statement he said that he understood that GPRs should have twice the flow as TPRs. I chuckled to myself and asked him where he heard that and why was it that they should have twice the flow? He said that he heard it from an individual on yet another board who was a leader and someone that seemed to know what he was talking about. OK, fair enough, but no "Fact based" information really. So I typed out my response including the history of the TPR (JR, Sean Hunter, Nigel Caddock) and the effects on a round pond in creating a cyclonic current. I then went into the history of elongated pond utilizing TPRs and how under some circumstances they can work and under others why there is a shortfall. Finally I explained to him the first pond that incorporated GPRs into its planned design and why. I haven't heard back yet but I imagine he was surprised when he realized that he was communicating with the person who first introduced the concept of GPRs into koi ponds.

I think I will send Peter Waddington an email and let him know that vortexes and diffuser drains are the wave of the future!

I am still wondering why a GPR would be said to have to have twice the flow rate. I sure can't think of any fact based science for it.

Bad info can lead to bad decisions. Its very hard to verify sources via the internet. There really is not a good method of "peer review". Yes, each board will have its "advanced" members. But, are those members actually "advanced" in the grand scope of things? It takes a national organization (or even international) filled with experience and knowledge to really sort through these types of issues.

The advantage of "live" interaction is the ability to demonstarte real time the principles under discussion. Utilizing a picture to discuss skin quality as an example does the subject an injustice. Live on the otherhand leads to light bulbs coming on for the first time. Yes, the internet and boards such as Bito can be a very good alternative, but will also always be second best to live interaction.

Steve

[The Pond Digger]

I'll second the fact that its a Shame this thread got tossed OUTSIDE.

OPINIONS are subjective, liberal and vulnerable. OPINIONS are powerful and influential. OPINIONS - the combination of knowledge, experience, observation, and environment - are also a doorway into a person's life.

Take pride & confidence in your OPINIONS, but remain curious and expose yourself to new OPINIONS. Allow your OPINIONS to constantly evolve and grow, while keeping and appreciate the memories each OPINION creates.

Grow the hobby thru participation.

The Pond Digger Grow Out Stats

Respectfully,

The Pond Digger

[sellis]

All Internet forums are useless unless there is a group of experts to continue a sort of peer review of information being posted. Actually this goes for any group. The level of these experts makes the group good or bad. Nice and friendly does not cut it.

Critical thinking is in short supply it seems. To many sheep, not enough dogs... err... the right kind of dogs

and the original question...
Growing the hobby can only be good if taken as growing the knowledge of individuals within... Quality over quantity. The masses do not have the obsession necessary... Those that develop the obsession will seek out the real hobby.

Stan

Edit: Seems this is my first post here so...
I am Stan Ellis from Nova Scotia, Canada. Internet is my gateway to koi though we do get to a couple major shows in US each year.
I have been coming here for a few years. I find this site a great source of information... more so as I grow in koi keeping.
Thanks to those that know what they are doing...

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by sellis All Internet forums are useless unless there is a group of experts to continue a sort of peer review of information being posted. Actually this goes for any group. The level of these experts makes the group good or bad. Nice and friendly does not cut it. Critical thinking is in short supply it seems. To many sheep, not enough dogs... err... the right kind of dogs and the original question... Growing the hobby can only be good if taken as growing the knowledge of individuals within... Quality over quantity. The masses do not have the obsession necessary... Those that develop the obsession will seek out the real hobby. Stan Edit: Seems this is my first post here so... I am Stan Ellis from Nova Scotia, Canada. Internet is my gateway to koi though we do get to a couple major shows in US each year. I have been coming here for a few years. I find this site a great source of information... more so as I grow in koi keeping. Thanks to those that know what they are doing...

Stan
Welcome another Canadian . Now to any one who would even try keeping koi in Nova Scotia is a real koi keeper . It snowed in June when I was there so may be you could tell us about your fish and pond and how you do it .
Regards
Eugene