Growing the Hobby

[JasPR]

Good Morning, I have mixed feelings contributing to this thread. I mean you have to be as dumb as a turnip to not see what Carl is doing here. But the 'Renfield factor' aside, The only value of 'critical mass' in koi clubs is the financial benefit. Funds needed to put on koi shows and run events is the result of size. But from there on, building numbers has always been a vanity play and has always lead to a 'ruling political class' within any hobby organization. Better to focus on the koi. And I tell you, beware platitudes. These slogans always come with an agenda.
Now I'm not vilifying national or international organizations. But they need to evolve from a NEED. Their benefit is size, wealth and 'something bigger and better than an individual'- an institution.
But is this about the hobby? Spoon feeding score of individuals passing through the hobby via Internet, or trying to keep koi alive in an impossible situation, is not unlike teaching dentistry over the internet. At some point, real life things require real life human interaction. This was the ultimate failing of the original 'other parish'. No, I think the message board is just that- a 'message'. Those highly interested in these fascinating creatures called koi, should get the message and seek out the real world koi clubs for hands on input. I mean, look at the confusion that arises in the area of 'what I said is not what you read!" in these threads. Do you really think that complex information and 'how to' details can be communicated on the internet ? Only marginally and sometimes 'dangerously'. The enthusiastic newbie is a real danger to their fellow newbies. But only someone with a few years experience and the benefit of being in the real world koi hobby can actually recognize that. How many koi were damaged by the indiscriminate use of PP before ORP was introduced as governor for that reactions? And how many though of PP as a health tonic before the details were shared? How many fish were damaged by the internet teachings that bacteria can be cycled a 48 hours if you follow an internet procedure? Just some examples. These subjects and many like it need class room work ( message boards) and homework with the tutor ( a koi club). The organized national and International institutions represent both class room and homework.
THE very best approach to building koi keeping and koi culture is thru a mentor style program - IE the koi club or chapter. Accept no substitute.
And I'll say it again- do not mistake the efficiency of marketing/sales on the internet for what we have in our koi organizations. One is driven by sales and the other, by knowledge, experience and vetted information.
Honestly, you can give to charity through the United way, the church, the various disease focused foundations and work at the local soup kitchens. Or you can give money to that guy from Nigeria when he writes you on the Internet almost every day asking for donations for his family until his millions come through. Am I the only one who sees the message board organization vs live organizations this same way?
And finally, Carl, your attempts at stealthiness insults my intelligence. Stop insulting me and I'll stop insulting you. Promise
JR

[JohnW]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Chat boards are a cover to see what hobbyist are truely made of. Chat boards are for quick answers and thats it. It is easier to discuss health problems on the chat boards than discuss the qualities of koi. I have met many from koi boards at koi shops to ask me what Shiroji looks like in person and it is hard to believe how much info this person is missing by not seeing something in person. The chat board to me will always be a second source of info as the first will always be hanging out at the koi shop learning as much as I can in person...

I would love to have a local Koi Shop for myself to hang out in and learn, I wish I had great teachers within a half hours drive. I unlike many of you am in the middle of nowhere as far as the Koi hobby is concerned, so my only chance at learning is a chat board. With that being said is a chat board a substitute for real hands on local learning? The answer to that is no but it is all I have available to me other than the few shows I will attend. I am thankful to all Koi boards I frequent for the knowledge I have learned, but I am not thankful as a new koikichi for all of the hostility that goes on here and other boards.

[JasPR]

John, I see you have just arrived among us. It is unfortunate as a long time visitor to these boards that you have just began posting with this subject. Very unusual ( or maybe not).

At any rate, where are you located? maybe I can help.

As for the idea that 'hostility' exists between people on a message board as a shocking thing, I'm a little surprised? Has it been your experience in life that people always get along? Where are you from again?

I think politics by the way ( of which there is none in this thread) gets a bad name. It is the process by which things eventually get worked out and ran. It is at the center of all human behavior whether it is between governments or marriages. I think what some people do is use the word as a pejorative to defend otherwise undefendable opinions or positions. There is such a thing as tone in politics and that certainly can get out of hand. But in the end, politics is universal and sometimes not for the timid when passions rise and positions become entrenched. Using a false identity for instance. How do you feel about that as a poltical move? JR

[carrie1964]

Quote: Originally Posted by JohnW I would love to have a local Koi Shop for myself to hang out in and learn, I wish I had great teachers within a half hours drive. I unlike many of you am in the middle of nowhere as far as the Koi hobby is concerned, so my only chance at learning is a chat board. With that being said is a chat board a substitute for real hands on local learning? The answer to that is no but it is all I have available to me other than the few shows I will attend. I am thankful to all Koi boards I frequent for the knowledge I have learned, but I am not thankful as a new koikichi for all of the hostility that goes on here and other boards.

John,
You may have to drive more than a half an hour to find great teachers. But in the end it is worth it. I have learned the hard way that the internet is no substitute for first hand knowledge.I belong to two clubs , an AKCA and a ZNA club. Even if you can`t attend the meetings it is helpful to join a club that is fairly near to you. You would be surprised how much information and knowledge is available to you, even via the telephone.
As far as the hositility, all passions bring out the best and the worst in people. If it doesn`t affect you personally, try to ignore it.
The same people who may appear to be "hostile" may just be trying to help the hobby.
When I was having problems in my QT last year, I had some pretty blunt responses from people who know alot more than me. It hurt my feelings.But now, looking back I realize that they were really trying to help me. It must be hard for the Kichi to "dumb" down enough to try to talk to and help a newbie like me.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond I am glad you posted. I have a better understanding of your concerns now. I certainly disagree with your position, but I would be willing to discuss it with you if we could do so without rancor, not that you personally have ever been anything less than civil. Wouldn’t you agree though that the nastiness that occurs on some of these boards , and even in this thread, is more of a detriment to the hobby than our new club is?

Anytime an attorney such as Carl starts a sentance with "Wouldn't you agree," it time to be extremely cautious because the person (or person's) being asked are being "set up." An old legal trick, right Carl?

So to answer his question I still have to ask why on earth would one of the leaders of the WWKC/k0iphen group continue to come over here to Bito? Could it be that Bito offers a better learning experience? Yes, it could, but Carl never get;s involved in those learning threads about koi themselevss. Nope, it typically ends in a political discussion that would otherwise not have arisen to begin with. Funny how he infers to the nastiness of "this board" yet almost without exception, any "nastiness" that occurs here seems to involve others from other boards? Hmmmmm, wonder why that is? Oh, could it be that they run back to their home board proclaiming how unjust others were to them at other boards? After they stirred the pot themselves?

Why Carl do you continue to do this? If you do not like the so called "nastiness" here, why do you continue to come back? Does the WWKC not provide you with enough knowledge or entertainment?

Steve

[JohnW]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR John, I see you have just arrived among us. It is unfortunate as a long time visitor to these boards that you have just began posting with this subject. Very unusual ( or maybe not). At any rate, where are you located? maybe I can help. As for the idea that 'hostility' exists between people on a message board as a shocking thing, I'm a little surprised? Has it been your experience in life that people always get along? Where are you from again? I think politics by the way ( of which there is none in this thread) gets a bad name. It is the process by which things eventually get worked out and ran. It is at the center of all human behavior whether it is between governments or marriages. I think what some people do is use the word as a pejorative to defend otherwise undefendable opinions or positions. There is such a thing as tone in politics and that certainly can get out of hand. But in the end, politics is universal and sometimes not for the timid when passions rise and positions become entrenched. Using a false identity for instance. How do you feel about that as a poltical move? JR

I am very new to the hobby, I am not a long time viewer of these boards, I am thanks to my job given tons of spare time to read the history that is stored in these boards. I am sir not a liar and I am not person to represent myself falsely. I have been in the hobby about one year and I am vigorously trying to learn all I can about these fish I love. I am from WV not a great state for Koi, several hours drive from any dealer or breeder. I like many bought my first fish from a man that damages this hobby by not knowing his butt from a hole in the ground. I am going to have to do a major rebuild of my pond this year because of this man, but it is my fault for not searching out for a place like this or KP first.

I am not stupid either, I know that people do not always get along, I choose to turn the other cheek and ignore the ill will. The behavior and "politics " of many members on this board and others that turns myself and other new koikichi away from the mainstream hobby. I understand that past wars have been fought, I understand that there is much bad blood within this hobby. I however wish that the bickering would stop for the betterment of the hobby so new members like myself can learn without stepping on toes we didn't know we were stepping on. I guess I am being unrealistic about my hopes for the hobby, but I like my unrealistic version better than the fights that go on in the hobby.

[JohnW]

Quote: Originally Posted by carrie1964 John, You may have to drive more than a half an hour to find great teachers. But in the end it is worth it. I have learned the hard way that the internet is no substitute for first hand knowledge.I belong to two clubs , an AKCA and a ZNA club. Even if you can`t attend the meetings it is helpful to join a club that is fairly near to you. You would be surprised how much information and knowledge is available to you, even via the telephone. As far as the hositility, all passions bring out the best and the worst in people. If it doesn`t affect you personally, try to ignore it. The same people who may appear to be "hostile" may just be trying to help the hobby. When I was having problems in my QT last year, I had some pretty blunt responses from people who know alot more than me. It hurt my feelings.But now, looking back I realize that they were really trying to help me. It must be hard for the Kichi to "dumb" down enough to try to talk to and help a newbie like me.

I will be driving a good bit in the coming year, to come to the shows within that 6 hour drive of me. But at the same time, all true Koi people that I have learned about is at least a 3 or more hour drive. I understand that it is hard for the experienced people to "dumb" down to teach us new people, but if they can't leave it to wonderful teachers like Dick B. that can. People do not need to come across harsh to teach us, the future of the hobby. I am a fairly young man at 28 and I wish to be in the hobby for many years to come, I am a student and shall be for the rest of my life. There are teachers and non teachers in life, if you are not a teacher that doesn't make you bad, just leave it to those who can. It is better to not post and scare off the "newbie" than it is to come across harsh and snobbish. Just my two cents but what do I know, right?

[carrie1964]

Quote: Originally Posted by JohnW I am not stupid either, I know that people do not always get along, I choose to turn the other cheek and ignore the ill will. The behavior and "politics " of many members on this board and others that turns myself and other new koikichi away from the mainstream hobby. I understand that past wars have been fought, I understand that there is much bad blood within this hobby. I however wish that the bickering would stop for the betterment of the hobby so new members like myself can learn without stepping on toes we didn't know we were stepping on. I guess I am being unrealistic about my hopes for the hobby, but I like my unrealistic version better than the fights that go on in the hobby.

John,
I`ve been in the hobby less than three years. I too, was put off by all the bickering. But in the end the koi won out.
At the end of the day, those disagreements have nothing to do with me. Despite how you may feel now , the longer you are in the hobby, you will learn that koi people are ultimatly "good". I post on all the boards.And I think alot of people know that I post ALOT on KP. It was the first board I found and the members have been great to me. BUT...not one time have I been treated badly by any member on this board or KS.Not one time. If you have a genuine desire to grow and learn in the hobby, and want to stay out of the politics, people WILL help you.

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Anytime an attorney such as Carl starts a sentance with "Wouldn't you agree," it time to be extremely cautious because the person (or person's) being asked are being "set up." An old legal trick, right Carl? So to answer his question I still have to ask why on earth would one of the leaders of the WWKC/k0iphen group continue to come over here to Bito? Could it be that Bito offers a better learning experience? Yes, it could, but Carl never get;s involved in those learning threads about koi themselevss. Nope, it typically ends in a political discussion that would otherwise not have arisen to begin with. Funny how he infers to the nastiness of "this board" yet almost without exception, any "nastiness" that occurs here seems to involve others from other boards? Hmmmmm, wonder why that is? Oh, could it be that they run back to their home board proclaiming how unjust others were to them at other boards? After they stirred the pot themselves? Why Carl do you continue to do this? If you do not like the so called "nastiness" here, why do you continue to come back? Does the WWKC not provide you with enough knowledge or entertainment? Steve

All I did was ask a simple question to start a thread. It got turned into an attack on myself and my club. I didn't do that. You can ascribe any sinister motives to me that you wish, but I haven't done anything wrong. Why should someone such as myself, who conducts himself in a civil manner be run off this site? Who benefits from these attacks? The site? The Hobby?

I just don't get it.

[JasPR]

I am very new to the hobby, I am not a long time viewer of these boards, I am thanks to my job given tons of spare time to read the history that is stored in these boards. I am sir not a liar JW

JW, I never called you a liar?

JR


and I am not person to represent myself falsely. - JW

JW I was not referring to you as an accusation, just a suspicion. But there are others, that are KNOW to use false I identities all the time that cover over to this board to defend themselves.-
JR




I have been in the hobby about one year and I am vigorously trying to learn all I can about these fish I love. I am from WV not a great state for Koi, JW

JW, West Virginia is in the region of the MidAtlantic koi club, arguably one of the largest and best koi clubs in the country. Your closest Might end dealer is Ray Able in North Carolina. But one of MAKCs main shakers and movers are the Rice family in West Virginia.
- JR



several hours drive from any dealer or breeder. I like many bought my first fish from a man that damages this hobby by not knowing his butt from a hole in the ground. I am going to have to do a major rebuild of my pond this year because of this man, but it is my fault for not searching out for a place like this or KP first. JW

John, now you have me worried again? I never mentioned KP in my comments? - JR

I am not stupid either,- JW

John, I never called you stupid. I did infer naive but not as an insult.- JR


I know that people do not always get along, I choose to turn the other cheek and ignore the ill will. The behavior and "politics " of many members on this board and others that turns myself and other new koikichi away from the mainstream hobby. -JW

I can understand that, folks with 'no dog in the fight' can see real passion as an ugly thing.


I understand that past wars have been fought, I understand that there is much bad blood within this hobby. I however wish that the bickering would stop for the betterment of the hobby so new members like myself can learn without stepping on toes we didn't know we were stepping on.
Again, what does the 'betterment of the hobby' mean? Civil discourse at all times in which people react to one anothers theories and personalities like polite robots? No thanks, that is world that lacks passion and at least needs to drink more coffee! JR

I guess I am being unrealistic about my hopes for the hobby, but I like my unrealistic version better than the fights that go on in the hobby. JW

You are a mature and beautiful person John. But I gotta ask, You responded to my post with anger about being called 'stupid, a liar, and being accused of false identity'. All things I did not say? I was just probing. It seems that you could easily be brought into our 'mean membership' with just one more post! Be careful, you are above this stuff, right?
Just joking John, don't over react.
People being people
Warm Regards, JR