Too controversial to keep in the Knowledge thread

[KoiCop]

JR: Illegitimi Non Carborundum.

[luke frisbee]

Originally Posted by JasPR

I think a perfect example of the associated weakness of the 'Lukean theory of learning' is found in a recent debate we had regarding the effect of light on koi. Luke, no doubt observing bass while fishing, suggested there was no link. I took the position that light was indeed an important stimulus for four season koi and in fact gave him the science behind the production of melatonin in fish and it's link to light. Luke had not heard this before but had obvously read something on melatonin in humans and sleep patterns so he responded that it was a 'people thing' and had nothing whatsoever to do with koi in winter. Melatonin, of course is a hormone found in all living things but Luke was unaware of that fact and likely wouldn't trust a book that printed that. Internet yes, Book, no.
I gently introduced text after text references from Graduate level text books on fish physiology- still nothing from the wall known as Luke.
Later, one of you found a news report pointing to the role light plays in triggering behavior in carp. And now it had the ring of truth! Yet who would believe a news story over a text book written on the subject by a group of fish physiologists? Know thy source!!
Quality of information, vetted information, can't be challenged unless you have a documented rebuttal. Personal observation that blends with the written science is well---- just dang satisfying! Not 'truer' mind you, just sits better in the brain. - JR

JasPR,
I really wasn't pointing at you when I posted this. i was concerned with how amny people relied on a person to teach them most of what they know.
You yourself show in your post you get your info from a variety of sources.

But now that you've presented your side of the story once again I have to state my understanding of "Sunlight being unhealthy for koi in the Winter".
Winter Sunlight is not and never was. What is unhealthy is to keep a bunch of fish in an artificial and harmful environment and to sedate them by keeping them in total darkness because those keeping the fish do not have the ability to keep the koi in a healthy environment....
Sunlight is not harmful to koi in the Winter. The deplorable conditions required drastic actions to keep the fish sedated. The fish produced the melatonin as a survival measure.
You never explained why the practice is no longer being done.
let me....The breeders and dealers began to understand that what they were doing to the fish was UNHEALTHY for them, and it is UNHEALTHY for koi to be kept in total darknesss for months at a time.
So JasPR, how long did you keep your koi in total darkness this past Winter?
Why not?
because it is UNHEALTHY to keep koi in total darkness. And was only done because koi breeders didn't have the means to keep them in a healthy environment in the Winter. one in which SUNLIGHT is not considered "unhealthy".

In that thread you did exactly what I am referring to...accepting what some person did even though they didn't kinow why they did it...you tried to glorify them by using text that while true was twisted to make the old breeders look more intelligent than they were. Not twisted intentionally but you are a blind follower some of the time...Most people believe what they want to believe..
But in this case the reason they kept them in the dark was because they were unable to keep them in a HEALTHY environment so they "knocked them out" even though they didn't know why darkness kept them still.

yes Melatonin is in many organisms Not all living things like you stated( " Melatonin, of course is a hormone found in all living things ). And yes it is produced by koi kept in complete darkness, but the total darkness was only done only because of the terrible conditions koi were kept back then.
The "Darkness" and UV lights show parallels...done to acheive a goal and not treating the root cause.

So there ya go.
Keeping koi in darkness for a few months is unhealthy unless you are severely stressing them in the first place and is not part of the Husbandry of current koi keeping.

[KoiCop]

Since you've already danced this dance with JR on two other boards, please allow me take a stab at it?

In the old, old, olden days, Luke, back when they still had books -- and long before the advent of electricity & greenhouses -- the rice farmers of Niigata put their koi into bunkers in the hillsides and covered the pits with lumber and straw.

Why this ancient practice? Because it accomplished several things:

* It protected them from the wind;
* It protected them from the worst of the cold;
* And it protected them from the light until it was time to come out.

They needed to be protected from being exposed to light before they were ready to come out since premature exposure to light would have roused the koi too soon and signalled to them to wake up from stasis, thereby diminishing their already nearly exhausted reserves of energy with more winter yet to come.

And back then, that slight loss of energy reserves might have made the difference between their koi surviving the harsh winter or perishing.

That's the history and that's the science. Make sense?

[luke frisbee]

and KoiCop,
i doubt if you know any latin outside of the pretend stuff

So let me play the "I know a little silly latin in an attempt to appear like I have some knowledge" game...
JasPR is Playing Bush the jr. in the oft quoted..
"farrago of caricature and non sequitur"..
but his caricatures are not done towards the grotesque but to make them appear Super-heroic

the non sequitur part is spot on when it comes to jasPR's attempt

[luke frisbee]

Originally Posted by KoiCop

Since you've already danced this dance with JR on two other boards, please allow me take a stab at it?

In the old, old, olden days, Luke, back when they still had books -- and long before the advent of electricity & greenhouses -- the rice farmers of Niigata put their koi into bunkers in the hillsides and covered the pits with lumber and straw.

Why this ancient practice? Because it accomplished several things:

* It protected them from the wind;
* It protected them from the worst of the cold;
* And it protected them from the light until it was time to come out.

They needed to be protected from being exposed to light before they were ready to come out since premature exposure to light would have roused the koi too soon and signalled to them to wake up from stasis, thereby diminishing their already nearly exhausted reserves of energy with more winter yet to come.

And back then, that slight loss of energy reserves might have made the difference between their koi surviving the harsh winter or perishing.

That's the history and that's the science. Make sense?

yeah it makes sense that, and they still do protect them from extremes in temperature. But why do they NOT keep them in complete darkness any longer?
let me explain it to you.
Sunlight is NOT harmful to koi in the Winter...only when you stress the fish by packing them in small pits and covering them so they are insulated, and providing no filtration MUST you keep them from seeing sunlight because then they will come out of an almost coma and move around and being kept in those small pits severely weakened them and they needed to be kept in a state of near death so they could deal with the delplorable conditions.

[KoiCop]

Hey, Luke . . .

What's the Latin for: You can lead an Auburn student to water, but ya can't make him drink?

[luke frisbee]

Originally Posted by KoiCop

Hey, Luke . . .

What's the Latin for: You can lead an Auburn student to water, but ya can't make him drink purple Kool laid no matter who is standing at the alter?

Who is an Auburn Student?

[KoiCop]

Originally Posted by luke frisbee

Who is an Auburn Student?

Don't you ever again change one of my posts to read something I didn't say. That's total BS.

[schildkoi]

Luke,
You have been warned before about changing someone's "quote". Apparently you cannot learn....even if you are told through the internet.

Steve

[jnorth]

Ok all lets not change peoples quotes even if its meant to be funny...