Too controversial to keep in the Knowledge thread - Page 3 - Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine

luke frisbee · 03-24-2008

is there anyone amongst you that couldn't read Koicop's post and then read the one where I made it totally different and Not see the changes?
Anyone?
Anyyyone?
Ok I guess most of us are still in the reds in the SRA's.

schildkoi · 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by luke frisbee

is there anyone amongst you that couldn't read Koicop's post and then read the one where I made it totally different and Not see the changes?
Anyone?
Anyyyone?
Ok I guess most of us are still in the reds in the SRA's.

Luke,
"Quoytes" are to signify what someone else has said...NOT what you say. You change the verbaige within quotes and you make it appear as if the author said something different than what they actually said. You may think its funny but it is NOT. I'm sorry you cannot see the simple difference from right and wrong...kinda sounds like your methodol;ogoes and those ny your "friend" up in Jacksonville are the same.

Steve

luke frisbee · 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by schildkoi

Luke,
"Quoytes" are to signify what someone else has said...NOT what you say. You change the verbaige within quotes and you make it appear as if the author said something different than what they actually said. You may think its funny but it is NOT. I'm sorry you cannot see the simple difference from right and wrong...kinda sounds like your methodol;ogoes and those ny your "friend" up in Jacksonville are the same.

Steve

you are confused...
mine are done in fun and most people could easily determine the difference, and I also don't change what they said in their posts, I misquote them in MY POST,
And I don't change it back. And i let it stand right there so they can say, 'Hey I didn't say that!' or get their panties in a bind like nostrum own incola latin stolidus.
then again I forget the crowd i am dealing with..I really should remember the lowest common denominator thing

schildkoi · 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by luke frisbee

you are confused...
mine are done in fun and most people could easily determine the difference, and I also don't change what they said in their posts, I misquote them in MY POST,
And I don't change it back. And i let it stand right there so they can say, 'Hey I didn't say that!' or get their panties in a bind like nostrum own incola latin stolidus.
then again I forget the crowd i am dealing with..I really should remember the lowest common denominator thing

They may be "done in fun" to you, but it is still wrong to everyone else Luke...plain and simple. I guess your new name is Ephen Jr.

Steve

luke frisbee · 03-24-2008

Still the point I made about Koi breeders of old needing to keep koi in darkness so they could sedate them because the koi were under tremendous stress due to the poor conditions provided by the Koi keepers is valid. And Sunlight is not harmful to koi in the Winter. And no current koi keepers practice such archaic and brutal procedures

luke frisbee · 03-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by schildkoi

They may be "done in fun" to you, but it is still wrong to everyone else Luke...plain and simple. I guess your new name is Ephen Jr.

Steve

has a nice ring to it.

PapaBear · 03-24-2008

Luke,
Poor ethics are poor ethics any way you slice it, and intentionally misquoting someone here can and HAS led to the misquote being represented on other boards as FACT. Misquote yourself to your little hearts content, but leave HAH's tactics to him and both of his readers...

Brutuscz · 03-24-2008

..Another thread degenerated to total nonsense. I feel as though my IQ has fallen several points just for reading it. So much for internet koi education. Outside seems like a good place!!

JasPR · 03-24-2008

Good evening and Happy Easter!

Luke, you disappoint me when you pull this twisting stuff as if we are all too dumb to recognize when you are spinning--

The original debate/conversation was about removing a winter cover to give koi more light in midwinter during thaws. I suggested that this was counter productive as it rouses the fish in stasis when they will have to return to that condition once again very soon and moving around wastes valuable energy stores. And a poor trade off to boot; to trade a few degrees of heat gain for a distruption of stasis. Do you remember that???
In response, you brought in the old methods of how koi used to be kept by Japanese, that I had discussed before.
And now you are pulling a 'hot air tactic' of trying to rouse the crowd regarding cruel methods the Japanese used to use. Hey Einstein, the alternative in those days was to leave them out under ice! Experience taught those mean Japanese that covering the koi or bringing them in and placing them in vats under the floors of the house allowed a greater chance of predictable survival than leaving them in the reserviors.
So lets review---

1) koi only have so much energy once in a state of winter stasis. Rousing koi by stimulation ( including with light simulation due to removing of the cover) in mid-winter is not a wise decision
2) the old time Japanese found that providing shelter and darkness gave better survival rates than leaving them exposed to the full force of the winter elements. It was not cruel, it was actually a kind act.
3) science backs up the basic observation of those early Japanese koi keepers, in that cold water and reduced light all ease a koi into winter stasis. Even koi under ice get less light for two reasons- 1) in winter sunlight is lower in the sky and 2) cold water along with ice cover and then snow cover shade all place a cold blooded, melonin producing koi into a state of rest. To rouse or disturb a koi in such a state is a waste of energy and counter productive.

So those are the facts and that is the science. - JR

luke frisbee · 03-24-2008

we agree
...the breeders needed to keep koi in total darkness because they had very little understanding and even fewer resources to keep koi correctly during the early years. keeping koi in total darkness was the band-aid they had to use to overcome their shortcomings....

And jasPR..that "snow" covering the ice thing...it ain't a normal thing... the normal thing is for winds to blow the snow into covered areas...and the pics I see from japan in the Winter show the ponds to not have snow on them more often than not. And I just watched march of the Penguins....even inside the Antarctica circle under the ice (and snow?) there was all the light needed for penguins to hunt, fish to try and escape and cameras to capture it all.
and yeah you agree with me now..Japan is so far to the north that the angle of incidence for sunlight in the Winter season is so extreme that very little light enters the water Compared to Summer. And therefore koi would NATURALLY do the stasis thing..but then how do they survive in nature? Let's see better nutrition, less population density, cleaner water (the list goes on) than when stuck in a brush covered pit in TOTAL darkness, high densities, no filtration or oxygenation...
Nowadays Japanese Breeders are much better at keeping their koi and require fewer band aids good thing they have Far-infared rays ...cutting edge technology. then Maybe it is the areation, filtration, and moderate temperatures, as well as going into Winter in Better shape.
I'm glad we got that cleared up... FINALLY
Cool?

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03-24-2008	#21 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	is there anyone amongst you that couldn't read Koicop's post and then read the one where I made it totally different and Not see the changes? Anyone? Anyyyone? Ok I guess most of us are still in the reds in the SRA's.

03-24-2008	#25 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	Still the point I made about Koi breeders of old needing to keep koi in darkness so they could sedate them because the koi were under tremendous stress due to the poor conditions provided by the Koi keepers is valid. And Sunlight is not harmful to koi in the Winter. And no current koi keepers practice such archaic and brutal procedures

03-24-2008	#27 (permalink)
PapaBear Oyagoi Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Davenport, Oklahoma Posts: 1,764	Luke, Poor ethics are poor ethics any way you slice it, and intentionally misquoting someone here can and HAS led to the misquote being represented on other boards as FACT. Misquote yourself to your little hearts content, but leave HAH's tactics to him and both of his readers...

03-24-2008	#28 (permalink)
Brutuscz Oyagoi Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,213	..Another thread degenerated to total nonsense. I feel as though my IQ has fallen several points just for reading it. So much for internet koi education. Outside seems like a good place!!

03-24-2008	#29 (permalink)
JasPR Oyagoi Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,458	Good evening and Happy Easter! Luke, you disappoint me when you pull this twisting stuff as if we are all too dumb to recognize when you are spinning-- The original debate/conversation was about removing a winter cover to give koi more light in midwinter during thaws. I suggested that this was counter productive as it rouses the fish in stasis when they will have to return to that condition once again very soon and moving around wastes valuable energy stores. And a poor trade off to boot; to trade a few degrees of heat gain for a distruption of stasis. Do you remember that??? In response, you brought in the old methods of how koi used to be kept by Japanese, that I had discussed before. And now you are pulling a 'hot air tactic' of trying to rouse the crowd regarding cruel methods the Japanese used to use. Hey Einstein, the alternative in those days was to leave them out under ice! Experience taught those mean Japanese that covering the koi or bringing them in and placing them in vats under the floors of the house allowed a greater chance of predictable survival than leaving them in the reserviors. So lets review--- 1) koi only have so much energy once in a state of winter stasis. Rousing koi by stimulation ( including with light simulation due to removing of the cover) in mid-winter is not a wise decision 2) the old time Japanese found that providing shelter and darkness gave better survival rates than leaving them exposed to the full force of the winter elements. It was not cruel, it was actually a kind act. 3) science backs up the basic observation of those early Japanese koi keepers, in that cold water and reduced light all ease a koi into winter stasis. Even koi under ice get less light for two reasons- 1) in winter sunlight is lower in the sky and 2) cold water along with ice cover and then snow cover shade all place a cold blooded, melonin producing koi into a state of rest. To rouse or disturb a koi in such a state is a waste of energy and counter productive. So those are the facts and that is the science. - JR

03-24-2008	#30 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	we agree ...the breeders needed to keep koi in total darkness because they had very little understanding and even fewer resources to keep koi correctly during the early years. keeping koi in total darkness was the band-aid they had to use to overcome their shortcomings.... And jasPR..that "snow" covering the ice thing...it ain't a normal thing... the normal thing is for winds to blow the snow into covered areas...and the pics I see from japan in the Winter show the ponds to not have snow on them more often than not. And I just watched march of the Penguins....even inside the Antarctica circle under the ice (and snow?) there was all the light needed for penguins to hunt, fish to try and escape and cameras to capture it all. and yeah you agree with me now..Japan is so far to the north that the angle of incidence for sunlight in the Winter season is so extreme that very little light enters the water Compared to Summer. And therefore koi would NATURALLY do the stasis thing..but then how do they survive in nature? Let's see better nutrition, less population density, cleaner water (the list goes on) than when stuck in a brush covered pit in TOTAL darkness, high densities, no filtration or oxygenation... Nowadays Japanese Breeders are much better at keeping their koi and require fewer band aids good thing they have Far-infared rays ...cutting edge technology. then Maybe it is the areation, filtration, and moderate temperatures, as well as going into Winter in Better shape. I'm glad we got that cleared up... FINALLY Cool?