Too controversial to keep in the Knowledge thread

[kingkong]

Mark, I don't mean to disturb you, if I have I apologize. You are the man in the field seeing this first hand. I am from Florida and know as much about snow and ice as well....This discussion is not pointless. I find it very interesting so hang in there if you will please.

I am confused about one thing. These mud ponds do not carry water thru the winter because they are drained? If they were not drained for example and there was 3 feet of water that did not freeze solid the koi could live in this condition. If the ponds froze solid the koi would expire most certainly. Now back to the 3 feet of water example. The part that I am getting lost is the weight of the tons of snow on top of the water with fish living.
Technically speaking we need to address this situation. Here is where I get messed up. Water can be compressed but very little even at high pressures. For practical purposes water is considered an incompressible fluid. Density does not change with pressure.
If there was 6 feet of snow on top of the 3 feet depth of water, it would be equivalent plus or minus to 6 feet of water. So the fish would experience the added pressure as if it was 9 feet in the water column instead of 3 feet. That is not going to crush our friends I don't believe but hey, Iam from Florida so what do I know?

[markgardner]

I spend most of my waking hours comunicating in a foreign language, maybe I should stick to that instead of English!

I have stated that the mudponds are drained and then refill with rain/snow.

I have stated that at the begining on January there was some ice over on the ponds before 2+ months of solid snowfall, by solid I mean every day it snowed. There was one period where it snowed for about 3 days constantly.

Pray tell how a 'pressure seal' is created between ice on the surface of a pond and the sides of that pond?

All I know, living in Ojiya and driving through Yamakoshi almost every single day for the last 3 months, is that the ponds are all full of snow now and no nishikigoi would have survived in those ponds.

It's all a pointless conversation, sorry!

Mark

[schildkoi]

KK, please don't make me add a "Part Quatra" to my saga and label you as the little sidekick robot "RuDA".

One must first comprehend what Mark is attempting to communicate...the SEVERE winters in the mountains of Niigata. One must also understand frost lines. For those mud ponds in that climate, most ponds would freeze solid or nearly so. This WOULD crush the fish. The sides and bottom mud is frozen solid. Water may not compress, but water will freeze and expand. Imagine a filled pond and then six+ feet of snow on top. What water that is not frozen would be displaced by the wieght of the snow on top of such. Unlike many Americans, the Japanese Koi farmers learned long ago that survival in a mud pond through the winter was at best "luck." and thus they remove the stocks to koi houses in the winter.

There is/are a reason(s) that there are "NO KOI UNDER THE ICE."

Edit....an experiment:

Step 1: Fill plastic bowl with taperred sides with water, freeze solid

Step 2: Remove bowl's ice, refill with water

Step 3: Add ice to bowl containing water, watch water overflow due to displacement.

Step 4: add wieght onto ice (to simulate the wieght of the fallen snow (6ft), watch water overflow more and ice fill bowl effectively crushing whatever would have been left under the ice.

Pretty simplistic but you get the idea.....I hope?

Steve

[KoiCop]

Not to worry Mark: You're doing a fine job of communicating.

And those pictures of yours ice the cake, as it were.

[Seefdro Tvneik]

Full of Amusement.......In a difficult human way a lot is being learned here......

There are not many koi keepers here on Bito who have to deal with winter extreme........AND I don't know the EXACT science of why koi can make it through the winter....WITH OR WITHOUT sunlight......But my koi do ALL RIGHT (I would prefer to live in Hawaii)....AND I STILL have my first koi going on 15 years (maybe 16) here in Michigan. During my koi keeping years I have lost several during the winter, but have seen total loss before by other pondkeeps.

The biggest factor for frozen ponds is oxygen ESPECIALLY if your pond is overstocked. Once that ice covers the entire pond and there is no OXYGEN you are flirting with dangerous waters. Which I think is obvious to everyone?

The sad experience I have had with light is when I have had to bring weaker koi in my house FOR THEIR SURVIVAL.....When that happens color can fade....This past winter I had to bring in a 14" Ginrin kohaku back in early Febuary...The color was a strong orange/red....Now most of the color has faded except for the head..I must admit the tank I use for WINTER EMERGENCY is small, which could affect as well......Well at least it's still breathing.

May the force be with you!!! Or the Darkside if it works better for you....LOL.

[kingkong]

[quote=schildkoi;109831]KK, please don't make me add a "Part Quatra" to my saga and label you as the little sidekick robot "RuDA".

Let me ask you this Steve since you took your 'smart' pill this mourning. Place one koi in a ten gallon tank and freeze it solid. What would be the cause of death? Did the koi die from being crushed to death or did it expire from "thermal shock"? Or is it still alive? Take your time..
'The Sidekick'___

After we get this figured out I invite you to talk about sidekicks and their tendencies.

[schildkoi]

Persoanlly KK, I think that they would freeze to death first. I was just attempting to explain what I think Mark TRANSLATED from the breeder. However, it is possible still for the koi to become crushed by the ice since the ice may hold the weight (of the snow) to a point before collapsing and thus crushing the koi. In either event, the koi is dead and thus:

edit: On is more of a chronic event (freezing slowly) and the other traumatic (crushing)

"There are no Koi under the ice".

BTW, I was joking about adding you to the saga.

Steve

[Seefdro Tvneik]

Sounds wild that this much snow would add this much weight to literally push the water right out and possibly crush the koi???? If there is several feet of snow on top of the mudpond, the snow towards the botom would turn hard and eventually form into ice....Thats what I see when we have heavy snows which sticks around for a while.....Just never saw this happen to a pond....Learned something new....I think, it could be disinformation though?

Never saw it here in the land of frozen lakes, but then again I have never seen a Japanese Mudpond...Let alone one during winter....Wild winter extremes for sure for the Japanese breeder.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Seefdro Tvneik Sounds wild that this much snow would add this much weight to literally push the water right out and possibly crush the koi???? If there is several feet of snow some of the snow on top of the mudponds the snow towards the botom would turn hard and eventually form into ice....Thats what I see when we have heavy snows which sticks around for a while.....Just never saw this happen to a pond....Learned something new....I think, it could be disinformation though? Never saw it here in the land of frozen lakes, but then again I have never seen a Japanese Mudpond...Let alone one during winter....Wild winter extremes for sure for the Japanese breeder.

Seefrdo,
The mud ponds of Niigata are not like lakes in northern Michigan which have depth well below the frost line. These mud ponds are sculpted into the sides of the mountains. with less depth and in a more severe climate. The scenerio of the ice and snow "pushing the water out" is a dramitization of what "could happen" if these ponds were left filled through the winter. Of course the breeders in this area drain these ponds during harvest (October) and allow the snow to refill them and as such it really isn't an issue.

The real issue is that koi are not left our under the ice through the winter by the breeders in Niigata for the koi's benefit and their own (breeders) pocket books.

Steve

[Seefdro Tvneik]

Right....Pretty much "GET IT"....Just never knew it happened out there.....