Too controversial to keep in the Knowledge thread

[luke frisbee]

I have to explain why I feel that the thread over there about where people got most of their knowledge about koi is not on target....

" I larned most of what I know about koi from carp fishin'."

While the above might sound gay, think about it. Your basic level college biology class taught you most of what you know about koi keeping. You just adjusted it to a specific organism.

Was it Plato that determined that man already had the knowledge within himself, and the right set of conditions needed to occur for the information to become exposed...this is very true about the smoke and mirrors needed to develop the appreciation for Koi "Beauty" that the masters recognize.
So we do not gain knowledge...we have it.
listen i don't believe that crap, but I do believe we developed most of our knowledge of koi outside of any koi influence.
This occurs to varying degrees... the pencil pushers probably develop more "koi Knowledge" within Koi Circles, whereas most people that have a hobby or profession within the life sciences developed almost all their knowledge "of koi" outside of koi circles.
What's funny is that I see so many koi experts that are virtually clueess except for what they were told within the hobby. And that is all they believe. these people are wonderful people, but are like religious zealots that are plain dumb about every other religion. They have been indoctrinated into the life sciences through koi which is bass ackwards. They become zealots , ecause it is more comfortable to accept what they hear and do not search for whether it is the stone cold truth or not.
Most of the time the zealot is right. Some of the time they even know why they are right. But often they feel as though everything they have "learned" is right. They don't have the knowledge base to properly question all aspects of the hobby.
Some have the money to be baptized by Billy Graham, others can afford to kiss the Pope's ring. Other's can afford to go walk with the Dali lama on a cliff side trail... and they can remember what their leader told them...but it doesn't mean they are more spiritual than before.It just means within that within the organization they have done something....

ONE area of knowledge that is "learned" within the Koi Circle, and is best learned within the Koi Circles, is Koi Appreciation...a melding of art, nature, and zen.
But there again the more that is developed outside of the Koi Circle the more it can be developed within the koi hobby.

Nishikigoi Appreciation your best Source JAPAN. (however even that can be modified by societal and personal proclivities.)

ALL the other "Stuff" from medicines to water movement is based in knowledge OUTSIDE the hobby...completely outside. Those that don't believe that get their knowledge form within the hobby.

[JasPR]

yes, we are quite lucky to have you among us Luke. To think I worked so hard pushing the learning curve and doing all that research, traveling etc., when all I had to do was go fishing instead! Bummer!
I once tried that on a teacher when I was caught playing 'hookie", it didn't work then and honestly I don't think fishing instead of studying works now ( or I'd have a PhD!)
As regards your theory of learning science, I have to admit, I do sit on a book to keep the grass stains off the jeans when I'm fishing, so you could say, I'm learning from both ends?!

I look up at you, Luke. - JR

[PapaBear]

Luke,
It is certainly true that "There is no new thing under the sun", but don't think I'm comparing you to Solomon.

One of my favorite sayings is that "You learn something OLD every day". The source of that knowledge is irrelevant. From within the hobby or outside, it is old knowledge newly acquired by the learner. Yes, we do apply knowledge learned in the dry world to our wet hobby, but in any case we had to obtain the knowledge as a perceptive observer, a continual student, a permanent learner. From there we use it in the wet world and it moves "inside" the hobby. How it came inside really doesn't matter.

[kingkong]

Koi circles among us...koi appreciation? Zen? When someone tells you from "the circle" that most of your koi suck....is that appreciation? I have to study Zen now so I don't 'loose it' and go off the deep end. I guess it all synergism.

[luke frisbee]

Gee KK,
is it always gonna be about your koi sucking?
the answer is "YES".


till you do something about it.
...it would be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel

[JasPR]

I think a perfect example of the associated weakness of the 'Lukean theory of learning' is found in a recent debate we had regarding the effect of light on koi. Luke, no doubt observing bass while fishing, suggested there was no link. I took the position that light was indeed an important stimulus for four season koi and in fact gave him the science behind the production of melatonin in fish and it's link to light. Luke had not heard this before but had obvously read something on melatonin in humans and sleep patterns so he responded that it was a 'people thing' and had nothing whatsoever to do with koi in winter. Melatonin, of course is a hormone found in all living things but Luke was unaware of that fact and likely wouldn't trust a book that printed that. Internet yes, Book, no.
I gently introduced text after text references from Graduate level text books on fish physiology- still nothing from the wall known as Luke.
Later, one of you found a news report pointing to the role light plays in triggering behavior in carp. And now it had the ring of truth! Yet who would believe a news story over a text book written on the subject by a group of fish physiologists? Know thy source!!
Quality of information, vetted information, can't be challenged unless you have a documented rebuttal. Personal observation that blends with the written science is well---- just dang satisfying! Not 'truer' mind you, just sits better in the brain. - JR

[PapaBear]

Originally Posted by kingkong

Koi circles among us...koi appreciation? Zen? When someone tells you from "the circle" that most of your koi suck....is that appreciation? I have to study Zen now so I don't 'loose it' and go off the deep end. I guess it all synergism.

Mine suck too. They suck on my fingers when I feed them, which is pretty Zen like to me

[PapaBear]

Note to self.
Never pick your nose while feeding your Koi which would make them booger eating Koi

[kingkong]

I was going to get into a diatribe of koi appreciation and how it should be koi depreciation but this 'booger thing' has completely thrown me off course.

[Brutuscz]

This is definitely a strange thread. The interesting thing about this hobby is the melding of art and science. The science of fishkeeping and biology is very well documented. This should be read and studied by all koi keepers. Somehow, every koi keeping problem that arises will bring me back to this. When it comes to this I feel like every koi keeper should have equal knowledge...or access to that information.
The Art is what is subjective...and should be discussed and debated. This is where koi keeping is a lifelong study.
I feel I have an appreciation of the nitrogen cycle as well as the best of them here. But, discuss beni quality of different bloodlines...and I have much to learn. This is where I try to pick the brains of guys like JR and Dick B.
I think the best education comes from the ability to take many sources..process them all, and come to your own conclusions. Never taking one source as absolute fact, until you've studied others. To simply regurgitate koi facts from other people is just lazy and boring...a terrible way to enjoy a hobby.