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Thread: I about jumped outta my seat, but I didn't wanna ruin the dinner for others

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    Dec 2003
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    5,198

    I about jumped outta my seat, but I didn't wanna ruin the dinner for others

    For cryin out loud...

    OK once again EVERYONE in the Koi World that is AKCA sits on their hands and buttons their lip..
    Who in the he11 believes this from the AKCA/Hikari Pond Contest:

    "
    Each judge, judged all three areas but each judge also had an area of speacialty and had a double pts weighting in their area of specialty)
    The judges were:
    Spike Cover (double pts on Health Husbandry)
    Burt Ballou (double pts on Construction)
    Steve Childers (double pts on Aethetics)
    Childers' specialty is "aethetics"(sic)

    Hell he can't even spell aesthetics...
    anyone ever hear him discuss his background in horticulture and landscaping? how 'bout art? (no Not Lemke. I mean real art) Hmmmm well then Architecture? no?! None of those?
    Well what does he consider to be his "specialty"? Has anyone had him come in and do the landscaping or artistic design for their Pond? Has he ever offered to do any of the artistic design for any koi pond?
    Is he a closet Interior Designer? You couldn't tell by the way he dresses himself.
    It is total BS saying his "specialty" is "aethetics". Which in turn causes the whole "contest" to be suspect.

    Childers understanding "aethetics"? Go and read the thread I started about the real aesthetics of a koi and see what Childers said...he hasn't a clue. His comments were lock-step with the "standards in judging" and his tone was that those standards are what makes a koi art.

    never mind I went and copied it for you, the underlined bit is how he sincerely believes:

    "Interesting Luke, especially the bolded section and I guess that I'll "bite."

    First of all, judging "standards" are just that, standards to judge koi against. These are not set arbitrarily either. To sellect a koi that is not the best representation of the standards (regardless of how one "feels") is doing an injustice to the judging process, the competition, and to all koi and their owners.

    So let us talk about the "standards and see why they are what they are and why judges should judge based on such instead of how they may "feel."

    First of all I want to use the comparison regarding Architecture and the architects designing based upon "form and function." An architect has to bridge the gap between artistic "form" and engineering "function". There are specific principles used in design as it relates to proportions in respect to space and human interpretation to function. Materials used to harden or soften surface impersions, color for lighting (or darkening) etc.

    Likewise in koi, there are specific standards for koi to also meet the "form and function". Body size and proportion being of the upmost. We common hear the term Conformation, but many people do not totally grasp this simple concept in its entirety. Conformation is more than simpy "size". It goes to how the koi presents itself in its entirelty, with not only size, but shape of the body's propotions including finnage (right size and placement on the body), girth, head to body proportions, and fat to muscle content. The standards themselves are very objective and the subjectiveity within as a judge (or hobbyist) weighs in on how each sub part is weighted against the other is where the fine tuning comes into play along with the call on "as they appear today.

    Likewise, Skin quality is also very objective smooth, translucent and reflective verses rough and flat, soft verses hard in appearance.

    Depth of color (not color intensity poer se) is also very objective. We have often times heard the saying "three coats of paint verses 1."

    Of all the judging criteria (standards), pattern is the most subjective (and is why it weighs substantially less for large koi). But even pattern has objective criteria. Is the pattern "balanced" or not...symetrically or asymetrically does not matter but asymetrical may appeal to a more artistic judge while symetrical patterns can appeal to more classical judges and is really the only part of the judging standards where "feelings" can come into play and even then when all else is "equal" (and it never really is).

    So while there are "show koi" that are judged based upon the standards, yes, there can be "collectors' koi" that are fine specimens but are typically lacking in one or more of the areas previously noted and as such are "sub standard" as it relates to those koi that fully meet and excell within those judging standards. This is also why these koi are typically substantiall cheaper to purchase whether it be due to the sex of the koi, shape, lack of skin quality/refinement, lack of depth of color, imbalanced patterns etc. They may make the owner have great "feelings", but in the end, if they are lacking in one or more of the standards, they would be sunstandard to a koi that meets those standards.

    Steve

  2. #2
    Honmei
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,744
    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    For cryin out loud...

    OK once again EVERYONE in the Koi World that is AKCA sits on their hands and buttons their lip..
    Who in the he11 believes this from the AKCA/Hikari Pond Contest:

    "
    Each judge, judged all three areas but each judge also had an area of speacialty and had a double pts weighting in their area of specialty)
    The judges were:
    Spike Cover (double pts on Health Husbandry)
    Burt Ballou (double pts on Construction)
    Steve Childers (double pts on Aethetics)
    Childers' specialty is "aethetics"(sic)

    Hell he can't even spell aesthetics...
    anyone ever hear him discuss his background in horticulture and landscaping? how 'bout art? (no Not Lemke. I mean real art) Hmmmm well then Architecture? no?! None of those?
    Well what does he consider to be his "specialty"? Has anyone had him come in and do the landscaping or artistic design for their Pond? Has he ever offered to do any of the artistic design for any koi pond?
    Is he a closet Interior Designer? You couldn't tell by the way he dresses himself.
    It is total BS saying his "specialty" is "aethetics". Which in turn causes the whole "contest" to be suspect.

    Childers understanding "aethetics"? Go and read the thread I started about the real aesthetics of a koi and see what Childers said...he hasn't a clue. His comments were lock-step with the "standards in judging" and his tone was that those standards are what makes a koi art.

    never mind I went and copied it for you, the underlined bit is how he sincerely believes:

    "Interesting Luke, especially the bolded section and I guess that I'll "bite."

    First of all, judging "standards" are just that, standards to judge koi against. These are not set arbitrarily either. To sellect a koi that is not the best representation of the standards (regardless of how one "feels") is doing an injustice to the judging process, the competition, and to all koi and their owners.

    So let us talk about the "standards and see why they are what they are and why judges should judge based on such instead of how they may "feel."

    First of all I want to use the comparison regarding Architecture and the architects designing based upon "form and function." An architect has to bridge the gap between artistic "form" and engineering "function". There are specific principles used in design as it relates to proportions in respect to space and human interpretation to function. Materials used to harden or soften surface impersions, color for lighting (or darkening) etc.

    Likewise in koi, there are specific standards for koi to also meet the "form and function". Body size and proportion being of the upmost. We common hear the term Conformation, but many people do not totally grasp this simple concept in its entirety. Conformation is more than simpy "size". It goes to how the koi presents itself in its entirelty, with not only size, but shape of the body's propotions including finnage (right size and placement on the body), girth, head to body proportions, and fat to muscle content. The standards themselves are very objective and the subjectiveity within as a judge (or hobbyist) weighs in on how each sub part is weighted against the other is where the fine tuning comes into play along with the call on "as they appear today.

    Likewise, Skin quality is also very objective smooth, translucent and reflective verses rough and flat, soft verses hard in appearance.

    Depth of color (not color intensity poer se) is also very objective. We have often times heard the saying "three coats of paint verses 1."

    Of all the judging criteria (standards), pattern is the most subjective (and is why it weighs substantially less for large koi). But even pattern has objective criteria. Is the pattern "balanced" or not...symetrically or asymetrically does not matter but asymetrical may appeal to a more artistic judge while symetrical patterns can appeal to more classical judges and is really the only part of the judging standards where "feelings" can come into play and even then when all else is "equal" (and it never really is).

    So while there are "show koi" that are judged based upon the standards, yes, there can be "collectors' koi" that are fine specimens but are typically lacking in one or more of the areas previously noted and as such are "sub standard" as it relates to those koi that fully meet and excell within those judging standards. This is also why these koi are typically substantiall cheaper to purchase whether it be due to the sex of the koi, shape, lack of skin quality/refinement, lack of depth of color, imbalanced patterns etc. They may make the owner have great "feelings", but in the end, if they are lacking in one or more of the standards, they would be sunstandard to a koi that meets those standards.

    Steve
    Luke, you are to funny and once again are inserting your foot in your mouth. While you critque my self admitted flaw in spelling and typing, you do the same in mis spelling Art Lembke's name...glass houses and stones Lukie...shame, shame.

    As for my qualifications to judge the contest? When you develop and sponsor a contest, you can pick your judges...my qualifications plainly speak for themself.

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. schil[email protected]
    CKHPA

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    5,198
    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Luke, you are to funny and once again are inserting your foot in your mouth. While you critque my self admitted flaw in spelling and typing, you do the same in mis spelling Art Lembke's name...glass houses and stones Lukie...shame, shame.

    As for my qualifications to judge the contest? When you develop and sponsor a contest, you can pick your judges...my qualifications plainly speak for themself.

    Steve
    Sounds like the SDKS rubbed off on you...


    So your defense is the Height Strategy????????????

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    5,198
    By the way "upmost" is not a word. or a typo..it is often found in illiterate ramblings

  5. #5
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    By the way "upmost" is not a word. or a typo..it is often found in illiterate ramblings
    Lukie, seems Merriam Webster thinks that "upmost" is a word. I think I will go with "their" judgement.



    upmost

    One entry found.


    Main Entry:
    up·most
    Pronunciation:
    \ˈəp-ˌmōst\
    Function:
    adjective
    Date:
    14th century
    : uppermost
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
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    5,198
    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Lukie, seems Merriam Webster thinks that "upmost" is a word. I think I will go with "their" judgement.



    upmost

    One entry found.


    Main Entry:
    up·most
    Pronunciation:
    \ˈəp-ˌmōst\
    Function:
    adjective
    Date:
    14th century
    : uppermost
    Mr. Childers, for a word to indeed be a word it should have a definition.
    Hence the way "upmost" is listed in the Dictionary you have cited.
    the most often correct word for "upmost" is "uppermost", however "utmost" is the oft intended word.

    Upmost is not a word If it was they would have given an example of its usage

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    I do feel as though i owe you a public apology. It was very low of me to equate your Defense with St Ephen.
    I am sorry for that

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    but we digress

    just what qualifications do you have concerning aethetics(sic) as you like to call it?

  9. #9
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    but we digress

    just what qualifications do you have concerning aethetics(sic) as you like to call it?
    First of all Luke, words that are not words are not listed in the dictionary. Upmost is, according to Merriam Webster, a "word" and you are once again "wrong," plain and simple.

    As for my qualifications? First of all, I really do not need to justify such to you. But let me ask you a simple question, do you have any idea what it takes, picture quality wise, for a full page digital picture in print? I do. Do you have any education in picture composition and scale? How about spacial design? Landscape design? The answer to all of those for me is "yes." and I feel the answer for you is most likely a "no?" Now Luke, why is it you are questioning my qualifications? Why not the other judges for the contest? Oh, and why would you even be concerned since you didn't even bother to enter? Seems like once again you are simply stirring the pot in an attempt to create trouble/controversy where none exists.

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
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    5,198
    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    First of all Luke, words that are not words are not listed in the dictionary. Upmost is, according to Merriam Webster, a "word" and you are once again "wrong," plain and simple.

    As for my qualifications? First of all, I really do not need to justify such to you. But let me ask you a simple question, do you have any idea what it takes, picture quality wise, for a full page digital picture in print? I do. Do you have any education in picture composition and scale? How about spacial design? Landscape design? The answer to all of those for me is "yes." and I feel the answer for you is most likely a "no?" Now Luke, why is it you are questioning my qualifications? Why not the other judges for the contest? Oh, and why would you even be concerned since you didn't even bother to enter? Seems like once again you are simply stirring the pot in an attempt to create trouble/controversy where none exists.

    Steve
    What the heck is Spacial? nevermind I looked it up..it is another illiterization of the word "spatial"... you're conversant in ebonics.

    The other two judges do in fact have some credibility in their areas.

    Instead of pretending to have any formal education in aesthetics (a word you are not well aquainted with enough to be able to spell), and instead of pretending that I am stirring the pot, just post your qualifications...
    I'll even give you that since you are editor for KoiUSA you have read an article on photo composition.
    But pleae...tell me, how come you are now a self-appointed Specialist on aethetics(sic).
    Plain and simple..You are not.
    It is obvious that the photo contest, OH WAIT My BAD..the pond contest is tainted when one of the judges is not qualified for the area for which he was self-appointed.
    If this was a picture contest then yes you do have a remedial understanding of what makes a halfway decent photo. That is not the issue...
    the issue is...you have no true understanding of aesthetics. And you have no appreciation of aesthetics. In the post I have inserted within this htread it is clear that you judge using a rigid set of rules and give little weight to the impression a koi makes unless you can explain it through the guidelines for the variety.

    It really doesn't make you a bad person. You are more than a "good person". But the contest was a sham when your vote is the one that is doubly-weighted in the area of Aesthetics.

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