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Thread: Pond Peeling

  1. #41
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    Steve,
    Sorry you are going through this. I've watched and stayed quiet as quite a few of us on this board know Mike in one form or another, i.e. seeing him at shows, member of the same club, etc.

    First off I hate to say it, but in my experience it sounds like improper application. 99% of product failure is usually the result of a improper application. When you said they used a torch to dry the surface, that didn't set right with me and sounds like instead of letting the cement products cure/dry properly, they tried rushing the job to get finished. All cement products contain moisture and leach chemicals during the curing process.

    On large boats that sit in the water all year many times depending on the coating the boat may have to sit in dry dock for months on end for the hull to dry out, and I am talking about Fiberglass", yes fiberglass absorbs moisture. Until the moisture meter shows the proper numbers the boat just sits until the coating can be applied to the bottom.

    I wouldn't think Mike would cast you off like this???? Any good business man knows that "The Customer Is Always Right", and one unhappy customer can dwarf 20 happy ones.

    I am sure Sani Tred must have some kind of application info on what the moisture content number is to be able to apply their coating. Drain your pond and make sure a moisture meter is used if that's what Sani Tred recommends. Your pond may need to set a while empty being water has had direct contact with the cement products.

    Moisture in the substrate I'd say is the number one cause behind all coating failures.

    Good Luck

    Good
    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed” Adolf Hitler


    Chris~

  2. #42
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Sep 2005
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    Well, this is a surprising turn of events, to say the least!

    First a bit of history - This pond was constructed between August and October of 2006. The customer was provided a written contract and that we cover(warrant) our work for a period of one year from date of completion! The pond was constructed of a gunite shell, 6" thick. After the gunite was maintained by the customer for 10days (keeping it wet for curing) it was allowed to further cure for the full 28 days. We then ground down any rough spots, etched the entire surface with muriatic acid TWICE, rinsed thoroughly with a pressure washer, drained and vacuumed to remove as much moisture as possible. It was then allowed to further dry for another two days. After this time, we used a weed burning torch, based on recommendations from SaniTred, to insure complete dryness. There was no "top coat rendering" applied over the gunite According to Randy at Sanitred, as long as it was dry long enough to apply the coating, that would be satisfactory (usually 15-30 minutes). We made sure it stayed dry for an hour before application of the prime coat, which was done in white. Then, LRB with TAV was applied over two superficial surface cracks to be sure the were properly sealed. The second coat was applied within two hours, based on tackiness of the first coat, and according to SaniTred directions.

    I was first contacted by Steve last August concerning a couple of small areas that had peeled off. We discussed the options at length. I contacted Randy at SaniTred at that time. I went to the customer's home to take some photos as Randy requested. I sent him pictures. Based on that, he sent me some material for FREE as he felt this was a product failure, based on what was explained to him concerning the application protocol used. I contacted Steve (left him a voice mail) and informed him I had received some replacement product and to contact me to schedule delivery. I never heard back from Steve. I STILL HAVE THE MATERIAL!!! I know he was originally a bit upset that the labor was no longer under warranty, but I assured him that we would work with him on the cost to perform the work.

    Now, another year later, all of a sudden, my partner receives a call from Steve that more has peeled off. He returned his call and explained that we were currently in the middle of a pond build and would not be able to get together for a few weeks, but that we would get back with him once the job was completed.

    I get a call from Steve yesterday. He mentions that he had been in contact with Randy at SaniTred and that I should call him and he would give me Randy's contact info. Well, I don't need Randy's contact info because I already have it, so I call Randy. We talked for about half an hour. During the conversation he mentions that he never got the info he requested from Steve via several e-mails and that he was more confused than we were. Anyway, I call Steve back yesterday afternoon to give him my findings after my discussion with Randy, but again, all I could do was leave a voice mail and up to now, have not heard back again from Steve.

    So, Steve, if you read this, CALL ME!

    Mike Perret
    for:Pond Life

  3. #43
    Tosai
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    Nov 2005
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    Brentwood, CA
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    It appears that when the dust settles, you should just have a polyurea coating sprayed on the gunite and be done with it for your entire life or the life of the pond.

  4. #44
    Sansai
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    Dec 2003
    Location
    Redding, California, USA
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    First off I think this issue should be settled in private between Mike and Steve. I also happen to know Mike and find it difficult to believe he and Dan would simply blow off a customer.

    We have not been given a complete picture of the peeling. Is it all of the coats down to the gunite? Is it just the second coat? If it is all of the coats that would lead one to think there is a moisture problem. BUT Sani-Tred recommends waiting at least 30 days and the use of a weed burner torch to dry the surface and this was done by Mike. Sani-Tred even sells a weed burner torch for this purpose on their web site. If it is the second top coat delaminating from the first that could be due an exudation of an "oil" like residue from the first coat even if applied according to directions. That will usually occur right away. I have used Sani-Tred and had some areas of delamination. The exudation was the probable cause and it does not happen everytime and Sani-Tred does not have an explanation for the occurance. Sometimes it occurs if too much time passes between the time the first coat is applied and the second laid down.

    From reading Mikes post it sounds like the product was applied according to their directions. It also sounds like Mike and Dan have been and are willing to meet/discuss the issue with Steve. Asking someone to wait for a week or two while they finish another job is not out of line.

    Mike also gives us a different picture regarding Steve's contact with Sani-Tred. So I really think that Steve needs to take this up with Mike and Dan.

    As far as polyurea being the answer to all, just not so. There are plenty of examples out there of poly failing big time.

  5. #45
    Tosai angelkoimd's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Burke View Post
    To your point
    we are also surprised and honestly a bit diappointed. When we call Pond Life, Dan/Mike tell us that the coating is not their problem, but a problem with the suppiler they used to coat the pond. I do not understand the logic here, but they are simply unwilling to do anything about the peeling and leak....trying to find someone else to do this work is also proving to be very difficult. I will call SaniTred and see what they have to say...harrumph :-(
    Easy...This is their company that uses that product-THAT THEY FEEL IS TOP PRODUCT to REPRESENT THEM ALONG WITH THEY STAND BEHIND THIS PRODUCT!!!! If they are unwilling to come out and look and help..them I would throw local news investigation..along with in the mean time calling the supplier of this peeling thing directly. This way neither can BULL sh$t their way out...u make Enough noise about this and they will be in a hurry to keep it shhh!..negativity spreads faster than postive..use it to ur advantage!

    Keeping fingers crossed and rooting for ya!

  6. #46
    Tosai angelkoimd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelkoimd View Post
    Easy...This is their company that uses that product-THAT THEY FEEL IS TOP PRODUCT to REPRESENT THEM ALONG WITH THEY STAND BEHIND THIS PRODUCT!!!! If they are unwilling to come out and look and help..them I would throw local news investigation..along with in the mean time calling the supplier of this peeling thing directly. This way neither can BULL sh$t their way out...u make Enough noise about this and they will be in a hurry to keep it shhh!..negativity spreads faster than postive..use it to ur advantage!

    Keeping fingers crossed and rooting for ya!
    Let me add that I did not see the other 2 post..one from a person representing the co. and their side...However...I DO FEEL being that its 2.5 yrs and in these 2.5 yrs this is not the first contact...and this has been kinda phone tag....and its getting worse- problem never got resolved....Me personally owning my own candle and jewelry biz..I ALWAYS make sure my customers are happy....even if that means I have to suck it up and use for a tx write off...not to mention SH$T happens sometimes...But I believe in what I sell,.......... so I will make anything that is not 100% right- to perfection to keep my GOOD NAME!...without my customers I have no bizz and no income!

  7. #47
    Nisai Moneypit's Avatar
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    Ok let me say first that I do not know the contractor that installed the Sanitred, I did my own pond about three years ago and had major issues with Randy at Ideal Products that sells Sanitred. I am having the same issues as the OP with delamination and major bubbling, when I installed it in my pond I called three or four times for advice on the install and did what I was told, when I called with problems Randy said their employees would never tell me to do it that way and since it was installed wrong I had no warrenty. So before everyone jumps on the hang the Contractor for improper application bandwagon I think they probably did the install exactly as they were told, it just depends on who they talked to at Sanitred I just found out that even though I had major problems with their product they still thought it looked good enough to post pictures of my pond on their site without permission to sell more of their products
    Stacey

  8. #48
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    Sunnyvale, Calif
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    Just an update to let you all know what is happening. Last week Mike and Dan were out to take a look at the pond peeling. Sure enough the final black coat was peeling from the prime coat. We found 4-6" sections of the black coating in the pump filter. Mike and Dan agreed to be back the week of the 14th to drain and re-coat the pond.

    While we have contacted SaniTred and have received their repair instructions, any wisdom from this group the tips/tricks of repairing SaniTred will be appreciated. I am particularly interested in preparation of the previously applied coating and also a way to measure the applied thickness of the final coat (we can see pin holes in the black coating near the top of the pond now).

    Will post pictures as progress occurs.

    Thank you all!

  9. #49
    Tategoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelkoimd View Post
    Easy...This is their company that uses that product-THAT THEY FEEL IS TOP PRODUCT to REPRESENT THEM ALONG WITH THEY STAND BEHIND THIS PRODUCT!!!! If they are unwilling to come out and look and help..them I would throw local news investigation..along with in the mean time calling the supplier of this peeling thing directly. This way neither can BULL sh$t their way out...u make Enough noise about this and they will be in a hurry to keep it shhh!..negativity spreads faster than postive..use it to ur advantage!

    Keeping fingers crossed and rooting for ya!
    Angelkoimd makes an excellent point there. No professionel wants bad publicity. Koi Forums and local news investigators get immediate response. Another way is to send a claim directly against the contractors insurance bond company. These insurance companies are diligent about paying out money so the contractor will get an immidiate letter directing them to make every effort to resolve the issue. If the insurance company isn't satisfied, they can drop the policy and the State won't let that pass.


  10. #50
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    Sunnyvale, Calif
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    Day 1 has arrived and the pond has been drained and is under repair. Attached are some pictures for those interested. As a footnote, the black is the sanitred final coat, the off-whitish is the sanitred first coat and the gray is concrete (shotcreted). Some pictures have a ruler.

    My koi are now housed in the garage is a 6' diameter show tank; much smaller but hopefull they will enjoy the change in venue ... temporarily.

    The pond has been power washed, and cleaned with TSP.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pond Peeling-waterfall-side-peeling-bottom-peeling-.jpg   Pond Peeling-close-up-ruler-shotcrete-base-coat.jpg   Pond Peeling-shotcrete-primer-closeup-ruler.jpg  

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