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Thread: Removing Nitrate? advice pleaassse! :)

  1. #21
    Tosai
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    Here's a link to a newer cd-book with more pictures. Anoxic Filtration

  2. #22
    Tategoi
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    Jul 2009
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    Hi DK,

    Thanks very much for posting those pictures. Dang! Those plants of yours are LIKING that water!

    I continue to be encouraged by your success with this system, but I also still find myself having questions about the processes involved. I guess the curse of a chemistry background is that I seem to need to understand the pathways. Probably, I'll just have to try this myself to finally answer those questions.

    Fundamentally, I would really like to get a feel for the effectiveness of the biocenesis baskets (a)unplanted vs. (b) planted. I feel that this sort of comparison would really address a lot of questions regarding the process.

    The pictures look great, although I don't think the first one (with the actual fishpond) made it through.

    I really appreciate your efforts in documenting your experiences with this system.

    Paul

  3. #23
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    thanks...that answered few of my questions....ie, it is not about using plants for filtering a koi pond

    "By matching the ammonia assimilation capacity of a vegetative filtration system to the fish load, you would need 3.2-kilograms (7 lbs.) of emergent plants to every 12-inch (304.8mm) Koi that you have in your pond. By estimating the present fish load and, keeping in mind that pond fish grow very rapidly, estimate the likely load in a few years not by the size the fish are at present. This means that if you had 10, 12-inch (304.8mm) Koi, you would need over 70-pounds (31.74k) of emergent plants to start with. More than likely, you would want to be at least double this estimate; 140-pounds (63.5k) of emergent plants would be more in the realm of reality."

    "The Anoxic Filtration System is not plant reliant; plants are an enhancement to the filter but not a necessity. For example, in my particular pond, there are over 17 biocenosisbaskets and only four have water lilies planted in them. This is because the pond only receives about three hours of direct sunlight per day. In actuality, this is not a sufficient amount of time for the plants to photosynthesize appropriately and produce flowers. If this were a vegetative filtration system, this pond would be overloaded with organic and inorganic by-products. However, because this is an Anoxic Filtration System, it is not dependent upon aquatic plant life for its continued existence and /or success. This filter is dependent upon microbial processes that are taking place inside each biocenosis-basket"

  4. #24
    Tosai
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    You are right Paul, I didn't have any luck getting the other photo attached, sorry. This filter like all others is a choice. I took a gamble, not sure that it was right, and lucky for me it is. I'll say this too. I doubt you'll find any other bio filter that will do as much with the least amounts of money, and maintenance. Plants are not necessary, but this allows me to enjoy some flowering plants close to my koi pond which I enjoy. You can also bypass the anoxic filter for extended periods w/o killing your bio bacteria if need be much better and easier than in conventional bio-filters, and w/o flow or added air.

  5. #25
    Tategoi
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    Hey DK,

    Good points all around.

    In truth, finances are most certainly a factor for me and my ambitions for a Koi pond. All issues regarding my understanding of the biochemical pathways pushed aside, this strategy may well be a very cost-effective way for me to get a pond installed and operating. I have no doubt that I'll try my own experiments and *tweaks* as time goes on, but I have to start somewhere.

    Question regarding the plants in the filter pond: I have heard that the presence of plants themselves generates a layer of fine sediment (I believe some call it "mulm") which settles on the bottom of plant pond. Have you found this to be the case? I might consider ease of cleaning in the initial design.....?

    Thanks!

    Paul

  6. #26
    Tosai
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    mulm- yes there is mulm and this is a fact of life regardless of filter type or having plants. If you read kevins CD Book, he mentions that the biocenosis pots act similar to magnets drawing wastes to them. i get a thin layer on the anoxic pond pots and botton. I have a bottom drain as part of my maintenance plan for my Anoxic filter. It's actually just a stand pipe which I remove when cleaning out the filter. I don't think it's caused by the plants though. I believe that this is fine particles the get thru the mechanical filtration. I do have to dead head water lily blooms after there finished as well as dying leaves and algae from early in the season. I use a "final settling chamber prior to the Anoxic pond and thisseems to catch some mulm as well.

  7. #27
    Meg
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    so the "mulm" sits in the "baskets" being cleaned out only bi-annually?
    .....something about this just doesn't add up to me.

    nothing wrong with an upflow system through some sort of filter media but a filter needs to be flushed clean more than that and a koi pond needs regular water changes.

  8. #28
    Tosai
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    Sep 2006
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    Meg- Mine is cleaned out in March and September and system is shutdown from Oct to March, that's no pumps no filters no aid etc. I'm in zone 5 here, so All mechanical filtration is completed before water gets to the Anoxic filter. Do not be so nieve as to think you have no mulm in your ponds after your filtration. Never happen. You can not filter a pond water that well economically with todays technology, period. The mulm is inert and has no effect on water quality. At least as can be detected with A.P. test kits. Here's my records of water quality checks for the past year. DATE
    Ph
    ORP
    NO2 (PPM)
    NO3 PPM
    NH3/NH4 (PPM)
    Kh/Gh
    NOTES
    07/03/08
    8.1
    159
    0.0
    0.0
    0.0
    n/c
    String algae attacking
    07/23/08




    B/F Alpha Bio-1

    S.A. gone thanks to dbl koi clay E.O.D.
    07/24/08
    7.9
    195
    0.0
    0.0
    0.0
    6/10
    Excellent - Iím pleased
    08/10/08
    8.1
    186
    0.0
    0.0
    0.0
    107.4/179

    08/14/08
    8.0
    179
    0.0
    0.0
    0.0
    107.4
    Iím pleased!
    09/01/08
    7.8
    189
    0.0
    5 ppm
    0.0
    125.3/196.9
    10:45 AM tested W.Q.
    09/22/08






    Cleaned out anoxic filter
    09/25/08
    7.9
    179
    0.0
    <5 ppm
    0.0
    125.3/161.1
    Great
    10/06/08






    Did large 40% water change & cleaned S/C
    10/09/08
    8.0
    197
    0.0
    <5ppm
    0.0
    125.3/214.8


    Update as of 10/2008- After using the Anoxic filtration system for 1-1/2 seasons, I am convinced that it works very well as described by Kevin. And I'm very satisfied with mine. My water quality has remained very stable this year. And even with my very minimal water changes/additions. PH 7.9 to 8.1 regardless of Time of day; 0.0 ammonia; 0.0 Nitrite; And nitrate has continued to drop to less than 5 ppm. I did a large 50% water change at start-up in March and otherwise, less than 2% per week till October. I did this as an extreme test, Next year, I'll probably do more 5 to 10% water changes. I believe this system is very effective on my "over stocked koi pond". It did take longer to completely remove nitrites. 05/07 to 05/08. Like all koi ponds, this filter needs clean water, so a pre-filter/ mechanical filter is a must. I would also say that labor requirements was reduced by at least 50%
    DATE
    Ph
    ORP
    NO2 (PPM)
    NO3 PPM
    NH3/NH4 (PPM)
    Kh/Gh
    NOTES
    03/13/09
    8.5
    292
    0.0
    < 5 ppm
    0.0
    Not checked
    Cleaned anoxic filter + 1K W/C
    03/29/09
    RE
    START
    PUMP
    U.V.
    AND
    SKIMMER
    5% WATER CHANGE
    04/04/09

    BACK
    FLUSH
    AND
    10%
    WATER
    CHANGE
    04/09/09
    8.5
    191
    0.0
    < 5 ppm
    0.0
    107/161
    Pond cover removed 04/08
    04/18/09
    7.8
    259
    0.0
    0.0
    0.0
    125/161
    B/F mech filter + 5% w/c
    04/24/09
    8.0
    189
    0.0
    0.0
    0.0
    Not checked
    B/F Mech filter + 5% w/c
    05/02/09
    8.1
    169*
    0.0
    0.0
    0.0
    107/197*
    7+ inches of rain *
    05/09/09
    8.1
    189
    0.0`
    <5 ppm
    0.0
    107/171

    05/30/09
    8.1
    184
    0.0
    <5 ppm
    0.0
    107/171

    06/14/09
    7.8
    191
    0.0
    <5 ppm
    0.0
    125/171
    Phosphates <3
    07/05/09
    7.9
    179
    0.0
    <5 ppm
    0.0
    125/171
    Cleaned S/C 100%
    07/31/09
    7.8
    173
    0.0
    <5 ppm
    0.0
    125/171
    5% water changes 2X/wk
    08/15/09
    7.8
    171
    0.0
    <5 ppm
    0.0
    125/171


    My Koi are looking great and eating and growing. And range from 8 to 28 inches, and 16 years for my oldest ones.

  9. #29
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    my small koi pond, 3000 gallons, has a diy 3 5 gallon barrel filter system.
    small foot print, cost effective
    as ALL pre-filter/ mechanical filters need attendending to, mine get a weeky flush to the sc and static k1, takes very little time, most of the time is spent refilling the volume of the pond after the chambers are empty. my bio filter, k1 with air, gets emptied at this time but is not "cleaned" per say.
    sure there is mulm, my static filter proves that! but it is gone when flushed, and I have one corner that my poor circulation plan allows some stuff to settle in, but other than the one corner, which proper planning would have solved, it is pretty darn clean and always test good.

    you say "The mulm is inert and has no effect on water quality"
    are you serious?


    I am glad your test numbers are good and your system works for you

  10. #30
    Tategoi
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    Jul 2009
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    313
    Certainly, there is more than one way to achieve good filtration outcomes. DK has been one of the very early adopters of what is a rather controversial filtration concept. Frankly, I have not heard of anyone who used this "anoxic filtration system" claim that it absolutely did not work, but whether it works as described or as well as described may be a subject of some discussion.

    With respect to DK's set-up: The "filter pond" is a small extension of the main (fish) pond, and my understanding is that it is only this smaller filter pond which requires some "de-mulming" on the order of twice a year. Whether or not this is a lot of maintenance would seem to depend a lot on how that filter pond is designed.

    I do not know the exact composition of the mulm. As it has been described, I suspect that the clay kitty litter substrate may be losing some fine granules -- this could contribute to the mulm. I have also been told that plants themselves -- even if grown hydroponically with bare roots in water -- will accumulate a layer of mulm (I suspect this may be due to shedding of cells as the roots grow). Then there may also be the contribution to this mulm layer from solid fish waste products.

    While I would certainly concur that the best mulm would be no mulm at all, the few people who have reported results from using this filter strategy seem to have reasonable water parameters -- certainly, they are not reporting the sort of waste levels one would expect if a thick layer of fish poo were simply allowed to accumulate and fester for months at a time.

    I guess I am hoping to see results from a few more adopters of this concept....

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