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Thread: Would Like Design Help!

  1. #131
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtp79 View Post
    Gloria,

    You are wanting ideas for filtration. What is your total setup for your pond?

    Actually I have never asked for filtration ideas other than how to best configure the flow from my skimmers to my shower and achieve whatever mechanical filtration is feasible with this circuit.

    What does bottom drain configuration consist of? Depending on that,,,it comes back to Steve's reccomendation of the "system". This will help us determine what your skimmer circuit needs to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Gloria,

    The topic of this thread is "Would Like Design Help!".

    The picture you posted shows a pond with "green" water.

    Green water offers some protection from the totally clear skies,boiling hot weather we were having at that time. I need additional shade over my pond but don't want to install anything permanent until I am reasonably happy with my pond. I had climbed up in cedar trees and rigged some tarps, but high winds had brought them down.

    The description you posted suggests a large pond with inadequate filtration to me.

    The filtration up to this point has been adequate; not overfiltered but adequate. The reason I am trying to install a shower is to improve that filtration to much more than adequate. It is feasible to operate a shower here for nearly all of the time that the koi are being fed heavily so between the shower and the addition of some form of foam fractionation I plan to move my pond into the overfiltered category once I get the shower circuit worked out.

    I know that a clear water pond is not necessary a healthy pond, but for me and most Koi pond owners I know, a Koi pond with clear water is a goal and priority.
    Is clear water year around a priority for you?

    I tell people you can have a healthy pond for Koi with green water and you can have a "poison" pond with clear water.

    The trick to getting a healthy pond with clear water (24/7) for Koi, without the use of UV, is to have "over filtration" (biological) that goes beyond what is needed to get safe readings on water quality pond test kits.

    P.S. Buying a $2000. piece of filtration equipment is "throwing money INTO the pond".

    P.S. I have not bought a $2000 piece of filtration equipment. I suggested it as one possibility to be discussed. Tell me some other possibilities.
    If it achieves your goal then it is not a negative thing.
    :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    i have had a savio sitting here what 7=/- years ago so a little familar with it.
    guess i have not went out to look for modified but like you stated is main use is a submersible pump on other side of pad.this way all the water can flow through the pad and can be used for what it is suppose to be keeping pine needles and out and such.
    so to go through the side does seem crazy to me.why would they not go through the bottom and have bulkhead on a flat surface and pulling water from behind pad area.that seems like the logical place maybe i should send an email to a dealer that i know that uses savio and sure he has done a bulkhead sometime or another through it.

    Paul, I really don't know why it was done that way. We had discussed changing the outlet to 4 inch and when I got home from work it was done like that. Not the absolute optimal placement, but it works fine.

    so with bulkhead through side it has to be close to pad(have not seen a picture posted yet of how close pad is to bulkhead)
    but to leave pad in there and having water POSSIBLY trying to go through only a 4inch area(bulkhead size)

    sure you answered my questions about skimmer.there will not be a difference front to of skimmer(if water is not leaving the skimmer very fast).
    if there was a big difference would mean basket full of leaves or something plugging the sides where water flows.
    so no difference means all that area is open so now its an outlet to barrel problem.
    now you say you have 1 pipe maybe with a rise but you have 2 pipes that should be flowing to barrel so has to be a problem with BOTH pipes.

    The section with the rise is after both pipes join together, just before it goes into the filter house.

    even pulling out the pad might not make a difference but it would be part of a process of trying to figure out things.

    just makes me wonder why not even attempt it.
    cost?-free
    time?-minute maybe
    easy?-i hope so

    you were looking for something EASY to do

    Paul if you read the third sentence of post #127 you will see that I have already tried everything you have suggested with no visible change in the flow. It would be easy but alas it provides no solution


    so if you need me to drive 8 hours to pull out a skimmer pad i can or call your pond builder that messed this up in the first place and more then likely he will charge you.

    kind of like a koi health problem its a process esp over internet or do you take the whole medicine cabinet into the pond.just check out any koi health thread and see how many different ideas you get.Maybe PP'ing the pond will solve the flow problem

    It IS a process which I am trying to work on step by step. I want to establish a reasonable plan with reasonable contingencies anticipated and planned for. I am ONLY working on my skimmer circuit at this time. If the other filtration needs to be worked on I will get to that after the skimmer circuit is done. Some one had suggested that optimal use of a shower was to route the relatively oxygen deficient water from the bottom drains to the shower. My pond is heavily aerated all the time, so I think that switching water input to the shower will result in a minimal and unimportant addition to the pond filtration.

    so if i do sound a little snippy probably cause i am amazed that people are offering you free advice and you seem like you want a quick answer.need to go through steps same way a person would do if there in person and was CHARGING you.

    good luck to you and best advice i can give you is call KOI ACRES to come down there and fix the problem.will be alot easier on you and us trying to figure stuff out over interent

    Why didn't you tell me that before I built My pond? LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    I am confused again (without going back and reading through 100 posts) is Gloria's pond filtration a DIY or built by some pond builder?
    :-/
    I am using Gene Winsted's filter barrels + Cetus Sieves.

  2. #132
    Oyagoi
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    Paul, I really don't know why it was done that way. We had discussed changing the outlet to 4 inch and when I got home from work it was done like that.

    copied from post above.
    you disussed changing outlets to 4 inch so that means you used different size in skimmer

    and few post ago you said 4 inch plugs fit in them

    now going to your page you linked did you use the external pump kit down on bottom part k10002 now my guessing is looking at pieces that is only 1 1/2 inch bulkhead that part has bulkhead of 1 1/2 inches then white piece on other size has upsize to 2 inch and DESIGNED to go right on a suction of a pump not gravity

    and one pipe is 3 inch leaving skimmer and 1 is 4 inch and bulkhead sizes are and if 4 inch why go down to 3 inch pipe.

    so now even more confused it is easy to have a small bulkhead then go to larger pipe but still you are feeding water thru possibly something smaller

    i know you want the calculations done but you do not have a 3 inch and a 4 inch pipe since tied to together you only have have 1 - 4 inch pipe feeding barrel that maybe elevated and flowing less.

    but 4 inch pipe means nothing if bulkhead thru skimmer is only 1 1/2 inches

    so try and get a local club member involved to see set up live or going to have to hire someone as i am beyond confused esp after what i copied in green above and looking at your link.
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  3. #133
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Gloria,

    Me asking for your entire pond setup was not in order to change it all. Your pond is a man made eco system, and depedning on what you have will let people suggest what would best suit your pond.

    I don't understand why you don't want to reveal the entire filtration setup. We are just trying to help.

    I think you replied to me that u had never asks for filtration advice except on your skimmer. What is trying to be explained is your entire setup is a system and needs to be planned as one. You were asking for advice on your skimmer circuit. It would be easier to determine what is needed on your skimmer circuit to know what was on your bottom drain circuit that your system is lacking.
    Member of IKONA
    Supporter of Koi Usa/AKCA

  4. #134
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    Paul, I really don't know why it was done that way. We had discussed changing the outlet to 4 inch and when I got home from work it was done like that.

    copied from post above.
    you disussed changing outlets to 4 inch so that means you used different size in skimmer

    I plugged up the open outlets that I originally used with this skimmer. There was a NEW hole cut into the skimmer and a four inch bulkhead or other fitting placed in that hole to connect to the pipe. The original skimmer for the pond already had a 3 inch pipe run and one of the skimmers was attached to that line. Another four inch line was run for the other skimmer. Why did we not replace the three inch line? I am not sure. At that time I was dealing with my father dying from a glioblastoma multiforme (primary brain cancer) over the course of a year with surgeries, meningitis x 3 and all the accompanying chemo radiation and such. Plus the market crash in the middle of that devastating their retirement funds. I was driving 650 rountrip every weekend so maybe I didn't focus on every detail as well as I should. I was focused on other things. Most things that were not done exactly the way I would have done them are functional none the less and I am working on correcting the things that are not.

    and few post ago you said 4 inch plugs fit in them

    now going to your page you linked did you use the external pump kit down on bottom part k10002 now my guessing is looking at pieces that is only 1 1/2 inch bulkhead that part has bulkhead of 1 1/2 inches then white piece on other size has upsize to 2 inch and DESIGNED to go right on a suction of a pump not gravity

    I linked to that page ONLY to show the recommended gph for that particular weir. I did not purchase the submersible pumps for the Savio skimmers. These two skimmers have always been pumped by the Artesian
    1/2-75 pump referenced earlier in this thread.


    and one pipe is 3 inch leaving skimmer and 1 is 4 inch and bulkhead sizes are and if 4 inch why go down to 3 inch pipe.

    See above.

    so now even more confused it is easy to have a small bulkhead then go to larger pipe but still you are feeding water thru possibly something smaller

    Like I said before if you could see it you might understand

    i know you want the calculations done but you do not have a 3 inch and a 4 inch pipe since tied to together you only have have 1 - 4 inch pipe feeding barrel that maybe elevated and flowing less.

    Yes the start of this thread was about changing where the pipes wye together to a 6inch fitting or some suggested running each pipe separately into whatever intermediary filter, sieve, or whatever we come up with

    but 4 inch pipe means nothing if bulkhead thru skimmer is only 1 1/2 inches

    It is not.

    so try and get a local club member involved to see set up live or going to have to hire someone as i am beyond confused esp after what i copied in green above and looking at your link.

    Really no reason to be confused. This thread has gone off track so many ways I am surprised that I can keep on track. I UNDERSTAND that I must address any flow issues in my pipes and I will once the weather is more favorable and I have the rest of the plan figured out. It has been clarified for me that properly run, a 3inch pipe + a 4inch pipe each running approximately 100 feet with say 3 or 4 long sweep 90's should easily supply adequate amounts of water to a 7800gph pump w/o throttling the pump back. it is up to me to make sure that part happens and I will do my best on that.
    My question is STILL what should be between the skimmer lines and the pump for optimal extraction of any bad stuff before pumping this water to the shower.

  5. #135
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtp79 View Post
    Gloria,

    Me asking for your entire pond setup was not in order to change it all. Your pond is a man made eco system, and depedning on what you have will let people suggest what would best suit your pond.

    I don't understand why you don't want to reveal the entire filtration setup. We are just trying to help.

    See post 131 last portion of thread. There is no desire to not reveal my entire filtration setup. But to this point it has been functional. I am looking to add a shower to this filtration. There is ALWAYS something better that can be done to filtration and I may change my moving beds at some point.
    But really I just wanted help with the skimmer/shower circuit at this point.
    My husband is very tolerant but I try to only do one thing at a time. If there are suggestions for further changes in my filtration I will take them under advisement but any changes to that part will come later.
    The only part of my "filtration that I have not talked about is that up to now the skimmer circuit discharges into a short (approximately12-15 feet)
    stream where the water depth ranges from 1/2 inch in depth to maybe 4 inches in depth. The stream is made with an EPDM liner and does have rocks on the sides of the stream. The water from this stream is diverted to a tpr once the temperatures get cold.

    I think you replied to me that u had never asks for filtration advice except on your skimmer. What is trying to be explained is your entire setup is a system and needs to be planned as one. You were asking for advice on your skimmer circuit. It would be easier to determine what is needed on your skimmer circuit to know what was on your bottom drain circuit that your system is lacking.
    I understand the system concept. But my pond is functional at present and a shower should make it more so. I can't spend the money for changing my moving beds right now, so I want to optimize the skimmer/shower circuit. Money for other parts may come later.

  6. #136
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
    I understand the system concept. But my pond is functional at present and a shower should make it more so. I can't spend the money for changing my moving beds right now, so I want to optimize the skimmer/shower circuit. Money for other parts may come later.
    Would Like Design Help!

    Money spent on other parts might be a better use of limited resources.

    Buying a $2000. piece of filtration equipment is "throwing money INTO the pond".
    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
    P.S. I have not bought a $2000 piece of filtration equipment. I suggested it as one possibility to be discussed. Tell me some other possibilities.
    I am not going to play games.

  7. #137
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Would Like Design Help!

    Money spent on other parts might be a better use of limited resources.




    I am not going to play games.
    ????puzzlement???? I am not playing games. I just want help on my skimmer/shower circuit.

  8. #138
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Gloria,

    Steve C has already identified that the pump to shower seems to be ok. Errors on the outlet side are easier overcome than those on the supply side because of the pump pressure. Your issues are on the supply side. If you go back to early in the thread, Steve identified 4 different areas that your possible restrictions could be.

    1. The skimmer itself

    2. the plumbing from the skimmer to your filter to the pump.

    3. Debris or junk built up in the piping itself.

    4. The filter before your pump


    Until you can isolate each of these to determine your actual problem, any thoughts on farther design changes are pretty much naught since the new filter or design will still be starved for water. Steve (as well as others) have suggested and given plenty of methods for you to determine and fix your problem. The weather has gotten bad now and will be harder for you to check without freezing to death.

    Searching for more ideas is only going to confuse you and others. Once you get the supply problem corrected, then we can give you design ideas. And be able to fully understand what we are working with. It is alot easier to design from scratch than having to redo something.

    Would the sieve work better than your leaf trap/filter,,,,I would say YES. But I dont know that on a skimmer circuit, that it would be worth the extra money for the mechanical seperation. That is something for you to decide for yourself. But even if you get the sieve, the pump is still going to be starved for water, unless your filter is the problem. Which for my 2 cents,,I dont think it is.

  9. #139
    Oyagoi
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    cheapest thing instead of sieve or the barrel filter presently using would have been to have the skimmer done right and bulkheaded through the bottom of skimmer and AFTER the pad right where a submersible pump was suppose to go.the pad would have been used for catching the pine needles instead of trying to clean the springflo in barrel.sieve might still let a needle through its screen(sorry do not know exact size of screen used)

    even better then the pad would have been brushes for easier cleaning.
    so with proper installation of bulkheads you would have saved on not needing to buy springflo and converting barrel.

    i would have then done totally away with barrel and had direct suction (boy people will hate that idea)to not 1 big pump but 2 smaller pumps up to the shower.this way you would get flow from each skimmer and not the chance of one pulling more then other if you T them together with one big pump.2 pumps would also mean one skimmer could work if problem arose with one of the pumps.even in cooler weather could send one in "winter" mode and other still through shower so water did not cool as fast.
    now you stated that leaves will overflow the basket and pad but an overflow on both skimmers would have prevented that.

  10. #140
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    My question is STILL what should be between the skimmer lines and the pump for optimal extraction of any bad stuff before pumping this water to the shower.
    The only things between my skimmer's output the twin showers stacks are a 1/2 HP Wave II pump followed by the largest model of Zappure UV. I have found no reason to put sieves or other devices on the shower circuit. I would likely only use sieves before a pump that drives a beadfilter...which is usually dang hard to really clean.

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