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Thread: Would Like Design Help!

  1. #21
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    also just a note for steve and also question to Gloria.
    picture 3 has the the valve all the way open
    picture 4 has valve partial shut
    first problem valve is BEFORE the pump and not after where is should be for throttling back
    BUT anyway asking why it is open and partial shut in picture could this be where the pump is getting starved also of water.
    Good eye.

    Yes, the valve below should always be "open" all the way and only closed when servicing the pump.


  2. #22
    Sansai
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    Also ( may be obvious, but I often state the obvious-lol) - depending on how the innards of the barrel are configured the water entering the barrel will be up to 3 feet below the pond water level.
    I edited a couple of my posts where my " mark was inadvertantly entered as a ' mark. I think i will stick to words from now on!

  3. #23
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
    Sorry, here is the link:
    Artesian Performance Curves
    The outflow will be 2" out of pump, 90*sweep(2") 2:4 inch connector 44feet 4" pipe-90* elbow-6.5feet 4" -90* elbow to 4" tee spraybar. Of course some of these will vary by a foot or two depending on how we can get the pipes to run out of the filter house,barrel/pump positioning ,etc.
    Yes shower is 7' above pond- the shower enters the pond via a 15' stream that slopes up 12-18" above the pond.
    OK Gloria, Here we go. Your pump iis operating at just over the 7' of head (basically little friction loss due to the plumbing and most head is the 7" elevation to the top of the showers. That being said, you pump is needing a supply of over 7800 gph when running wide open. The next step is the suction inlet in your barrel verses the supply side piping to the barrel. The key is the pumps suction side inlet tolerance inthe barrel. With the pump off, how far down is this inlet?

    Even though you have two supplies, they come together into a single 4. inlet into the barrel. Thus, for every 3500 gallons of flow, the draw down will be about 1" With your 7800 gph demand, you are going to have well over 2.25" (ish) of draw down plus a suction vortex that will pull air down. I typically recommend that there be at least 2 additional inches to prevent this and thus you seem to need allow for about 4" of draw down on the filter design suction discharge outlet. That OR add addional supply inlets (seperating your 4" and 3" supply lines. With this configuration the at 1" draw down the supply is just under 6000 gph so thus the drawn down can be reduced to about 1.5 inches (plus the 2). Thus, changing (lowering) the dischrage outlet and adding additional supply (3 and 4" supplies individually) should solve your problem and still allow for the full 7800 gph.

    Keep in mind the barrel filter will have little value in separating solids with that flow rate and velocities.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Would Like Design Help!-friction-pump-gloria.jpg  
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  4. #24
    Sansai
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    Thanks for your input Steve. At present the plan is to put the six inch inflow line ( 3in and 4in wyed into 6in)in thru the bottom of the barrel. The height of the 6in line inside the barrel and the configuration of piping from the inside of the barrel to the outflow are the parts that I am having trouble with. Upflow? downflow? Hamsterball to keep the springflo from being sucked out? The current setup has the inflow pipe terminating about 20 down from the top. The outflow is right angles down below a grate that keeps the springflo from being sucked out of the barrel. The actual location of the pipe is ~12 in up from the bottom There is a waste line out the bottom and a second waste line near the top to capture floating debris.

  5. #25
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
    Thanks for your input Steve. At present the plan is to put the six inch inflow line ( 3in and 4in wyed into 6in)in thru the bottom of the barrel. The height of the 6in line inside the barrel and the configuration of piping from the inside of the barrel to the outflow are the parts that I am having trouble with. Upflow? downflow? Hamsterball to keep the springflo from being sucked out? The current setup has the inflow pipe terminating about 20 down from the top. The outflow is right angles down below a grate that keeps the springflo from being sucked out of the barrel. The actual location of the pipe is ~12 in up from the bottom There is a waste line out the bottom and a second waste line near the top to capture floating debris.
    OK, confused again. The barrel is for bio with the springflow? If so, why is the water then going through a shower filter? If it is there to trap the crap, the velocity of the water through it will not be condusive to its useage. The TOP of the discharge pipe in the chamber is how high? The exit point doesn't matter.

    For the record, tying in the 3 and 4 inch pipes to a single 6" pipe will not yield any significant more supply than the singular 3 inch and 4" pipes as outlined previously.

    Perhaps I am not understanding what you are tryng to accomplish with the barrel. It is really too small for the flow you are trying to put through it.

    BTW, what is the flow capacity of your shower?
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  6. #26
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    OK, confused again. The barrel is for bio with the springflow? If so, why is the water then going through a shower filter? If it is there to trap the crap, the velocity of the water through it will not be condusive to its useage. The TOP of the discharge pipe in the chamber is how high? The exit point doesn't matter.

    For the record, tying in the 3 and 4 inch pipes to a single 6" pipe will not yield any significant more supply than the singular 3 inch and 4" pipes as outlined previously.

    Perhaps I am not understanding what you are tryng to accomplish with the barrel. It is really too small for the flow you are trying to put through it.

    BTW, what is the flow capacity of your shower?
    In case you missed it, according to Paul; "using it more (guessing) to trap leaves and pine needles in the strapping so she does not have to take about the lid on priming pot(they are a bee itch to do) so good thinking there."

  7. #27
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    OK, confused again. The barrel is for bio with the springflow? If so, why is the water then going through a shower filter? If it is there to trap the crap, the velocity of the water through it will not be condusive to its useage. The TOP of the discharge pipe in the chamber is how high? The exit point doesn't matter.

    For the record, tying in the 3 and 4 inch pipes to a single 6" pipe will not yield any significant more supply than the singular 3 inch and 4" pipes as outlined previously.

    Perhaps I am not understanding what you are tryng to accomplish with the barrel. It is really too small for the flow you are trying to put through it.

    BTW, what is the flow capacity of your shower?
    ok my guessing again

    think of the barrel as her BIGGER priming pot.springflo is just to trap leaves and pine needles since she has nothing settlable.
    alot easier to clean springflo of leaves and needles then trying to take off lid on priming pot(esp where it is located)

  8. #28
    Sansai
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    The barrel is not for bio. These lines come from my Savio skimmers which do a pretty good job of trapping large debris until there is a big rainstorm(we get lots of those) The water level in the pond during heavy rain allows debris to flow OVER the top of the filter mats sending leaves and cedar needles to the pump. Once the overflow drops the water level this is not a problem, but we get frequent gullywashers around here. The springflo is just to act as a mechanical block for any large debris and has been working pretty well for that with the current setup.
    The top of the inflow pipe at present is ~20in below pond level(top of barrel). I want the water to either flow down over the springflo or up through the springflo then out to the shower.
    Flow capacity of my shower? I have 2 4 in lines out of the shower running to the pond. I figured that would handle what was pumped up. Incorrect?

  9. #29
    Honmei
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    OK, Got it...I did miss the earlier mention of leaves and needles.

    It is good to have smething seperate this type of stuff prior to the leaf trap (I hate cleaning those). That being said, Springflow would not be my method of choice. In fact, the barrel wouldn't be my method either...as I said, with the flows being used especially.

    The INLET at 20" below water level is fine. It is the OUTLET's top hieght that is the problem (coupled with the supply piping). If that was 20" below water level, the pump would not suck air.

    YYou said that the piping EXITED the Savio skimmers, 1 with three inch and the other with 4 inch pipe, correct? These aren't 2" bulkheads immediately upsized to those piping sizes by chance, are they?
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  10. #30
    Sansai
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    No, the 2 in bulkheads were sealed and new 4 in outlets cut into the skimmers. This happened the second time I redid my pond. Apparently there was already one 3 in line run from the skimmers with the outflow of both skimmers going thru that one line. When they were modified the second line was added and it was 4 in.
    Springflo is way better than what I started with! I tried bird netting first. Oh it caught all sorts of cr*p. You should have seen me and the filter house after I tried to pull out the bird netting that was stuffed into that barrel. i hope I am never that nasty or stinky again! So springflo seemed like a much more civilized approach!!!
    How would you solve my problem of routing 7800 gallons of water from two skimmers to a pump and on to a shower, considering the small space I have to work with?
    With the current setup the inlet is 20" below POND water level(top of barrel), however the water level in the barrel is no more than a few inches.
    The outlet pipe exits the barrel at ~12 from the bottom, but the pickup inside the barrel is a 90that goes down to w/n a few inches of the bottom of the barrel.

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