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Thread: Would Like Design Help!

  1. #31
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    I am not sure what Steve is going to tell you but I have a couple ideas that might work.

    Option 1,,,either use the barrell you have or get a 55 gallon plastic barrel and order some round matala,,easiest way to clean it would be to mount the matala in the top of the barrell,,,let the water enter the top of the barrell and flow down thru the roll of matala and have the suction of the pump come from the bottom.

    Basically all you need is a large leaf basket like in a skimmer.

    I know they make 3 inch external priming pots,,,I would think one of these could be plumbed in right before the pump with ball valves for isolation so it could be cleaned if need be.

    Both of these ideas may be complete crap, If they are I am sure I will hear about it from a certain someone.
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  2. #32
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    It is good to have something seperate this type of stuff prior to the leaf trap (I hate cleaning those). That being said, Springflow would not be my method of choice. In fact, the barrel wouldn't be my method either...
    Steve,

    I know this is a little off-topic, but I would like to know what you would recommend instead of "Springflow"?

  3. #33
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
    No, the 2 in bulkheads were sealed and new 4 in outlets cut into the skimmers. This happened the second time I redid my pond. Apparently there was already one 3 in line run from the skimmers with the outflow of both skimmers going thru that one line. When they were modified the second line was added and it was 4 in.
    Springflo is way better than what I started with! I tied bird netting first. Oh it caught all sorts of cr*p. You should have seen me and the filter house after I tried to pull out the bird netting that was stuffed into that barrel. i hope I am never that nasty or stinky again! So springflo seemed like a much more civilized approach!!!
    How would you solve my problem of routing 7800 gallons of water from two skimmers to a pump and on to a shower, considering the small space I have to work with?
    With the current setup the inlet is 20" below POND water level(top of barrel), however the water level in the barrel is no more than a few inches.
    The outlet pipe exits the barrel at ~12 from the bottom, but the pickup inside the barrel is a 90that goes down to w/n a few inches of the bottom of the barrel.
    OK, I am still confused so let's try this from a different angle. How many inches of draw down is there when the pump is not throttled back? Also, look inthe skimmers themselves. Is there draw down there such that the supply lines to the barrel are drawing air? Check both skimmers please.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]com
    CKHPA

  4. #34
    Sansai
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    Steve the outflow pipes from the skimmers are at the very bottom of the skimmers so those pipes don't suck air until the pond water level goes below the skimmer weir. I rechecked the skimmer 'barrel' with my trusty tape measure and these are the revised figures. Barrel 36.5 in high 23in wide. The top of the inflow pipe in the skimmer is 13 3/4 inches below the top of the barrel or 22 3/4 in above the bottom. With all pumps off and the pond at normal full level the water in the barrel is 2 in below the top of the barrel. With no outlet valve restriction the water level with the pump on is 7-8 inches from the bottom. The only variable I cannot determine for sure is exactly how high above the bottom of the barrel the mouth of the outlet pipe sits (under the springflo, under a grate; I did not assemble this part). As the pump begins to suck a little air with all the valves wide open, I assume there is some vortex occurring that allows air into the outlet pipe.
    So I guess the draw down with the current set up is 36.5-2-7= 27inches??
    I am having a little surgery today so will be out of commission for a day or so. I would love to hear from anybody on a better way to set up this run from the skimmers to the shower via the Artesian1/2-75 pump and any other components that will make it work better! Thanks for all your help!
    Last edited by GloriaL; 12-05-2010 at 01:29 PM. Reason: added barrel after skimmer in line 2

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
    Steve the outflow pipes from the skimmers are at the very bottom of the skimmers so those pipes don't suck air until the pond water level goes below the skimmer weir. I rechecked the skimmer with my trusty tape measure and these are the revised figures. Barrel 36.5 in high 23in wide. The top of the inflow pipe in the skimmer is 13 3/4 inches below the top of the barrel or 22 3/4 in above the bottom. With all pumps off and the pond at normal full level the water in the barrel is 2 in below the top of the barrel. With no outlet valve restriction the water level with the pump on is 7-8 inches from the bottom. The only variable I cannot determine for sure is exactly how high above the bottom of the barrel the mouth of the outlet pipe sits (under the springflo, under a grate; I did not assemble this part). As the pump begins to suck a little air with all the valves wide open, I assume there is some vortex occurring that allows air into the outlet pipe.
    So I guess the draw down with the current set up is 36.5-2-7= 27inches??
    I am having a little surgery today so will be out of commission for a day or so. I would love to hear from anybody on a better way to set up this run from the skimmers to the shower via the Artesian1/2-75 pump and any other components that will make it work better! Thanks for all your help!
    Thanks for the additional info Gloria. 27" of draw down for 7800 gph tells a big tale. an unrestricted, 4" line from pond to barrel should only results in the 2.25" (ish) draw down I stated earlier. Sooooo, either we have the wrong pump performance curve and the pump is pumping WAYYYYY more water (doubtful that any typical pond pump woud draw down 27") or, there is some other limiting factor not acounted for. I took the liberty of checking on the flow limitations of Savio Skimners (via Mike Swason at Koi Acres) here is the data he supplied:

    Stock large unit w/a:


    8" faceplate 5.5k-6k gph
    12" faceplate 7k -7.5k gph
    16" faceplate 8.5k - 9k gph


    Stock small unit w/a:
    6" faceplate 3.5k gph (best guess as I have not used one this small)
    8" faceplate 5.0k gph


    Now, depending on the Savio units and faceplate which you have, these may be a limiting factor. The pads inside can also be limiting factors In addition, although your piping is 3 and 4" respectively, the flow characteristics are limited by the smallest diameter that the flow goes through. As an example, with one single 2" fitting on an otherwise 4" line, the flow characteristocs become that of the 2" line (albeit with less friction loss due to the increased piping sze). Another possibility is that there s an obstruction somewhere in the line. One common problem on gravity flow supplies are "bellies" created when the piping goes up, and then back down. Gasses collect in these and restrict flow.

    So, the bottm line is that your 27" draw down is indicative of some restriction on the supply side of the barrel, even beyond the maximum flow of the 4" available entering the barrel since 27" of drawn down on an unresticted, 1 transfer, 4" feed would allow gravity to force upwards of 90,000 gph into the barrel and we definitely know your pump is not capable of that (that would be an industrial fire supression system pump size).

    So, where to go from here? The possibilities already mentioned are, the savio Skimmers themselves, a reduced fitting size somewhere along one or both of the supply lines, a physical restriction in the line(s) (leaves or needles) or a bellie in the piping that is trapping gasses.

    Here's a couple of things to try to help isolate the issue(s). Take all removable parts out of the Savio with the pump running, looking inside of the savios, do the outlets reamin fully flooded (at least a couple of inches of water over the highest point of that outlet. If not, you know one issue. If so, is the draw down still 27" or is there an improvement?

    Next step, run a snake down each line (each savio) one at a time to the barrel. Does any debris come out?

    Next (providing previous do not reduce the 27" draw down) Are you absolutely positive that nieght of the feeds have a reduced fitting along their lines, anwhere? It would only take 1 to really mess it up.

    Finally, think back to when the supply piping was layed. I know you stated previously that the piping ran down hill. BUT, it would only take one instance of it going upward and then downward to create that bellie I spoke of.

    Now, from the barrel inlet, to the outlet, can you dry fit piping to make a direct connect temporarily? If so, please do and with the barrel filled, run the pump. This can serve multiple purposes. First, air pockets can sometimes be sucked out with direct suction. It will also allow for a visual inspection of the draw down within the savio skimmers and help in further determinations if they are contributing to the problem. If the problem is resolved here (temporarily), and IF it is does to an air pocket in the bellie of the piping somehwere, the high point of the bellie would need a breather line so that gases can escape. This line could be tapped in at the hieght of the bellie and extended up beyond the ponds water level. It might also be used for a pond overflow which I will address in my next post when I asnwer Ric's question about springflow.

    By the way, I will be at Mike Hammock's over the Thanksgiving weekend for his harvest if you want to stop by and talk further about this.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Steve,

    I know this is a little off-topic, but I would like to know what you would recommend instead of "Springflow"?
    Good morning Ric.
    I wrote a very lengthy post earlier this morning in response to your question only to be distracted and then hitting the wrong key..."poof".

    Sooo, let me try again.

    Springflow is designed as a bio media for use n a low current environment. As a mechanical media, in low flow environments it does trap some crap. The higher the flow rate (velecity ) through such, the more it packs (which can be good or bad or even both). The more it packs, the more it can restrict flow, let alone the higher propensity to then clog. Although some may say that it is easy to clean, by my personal standards it isn't.

    Now, what to use in place of such? Well, on the surface, that is an easy question, my response is not. As most know, I am a very big believer in designing wholistically verses by individual components being placed in without regard to how one may affect another.

    In this specific case I would redesign the whole circuit based on desired design parameters. If two skimmers are desired and need for the pond's overall design AND they were to feed a shower filter at a given rate, I would then design for those specifics along with considerations of placement for the skimmers themselves and their return lines so as to add to desired current patterns. Next, I would look at the specifications for the shower itself. What s the max supply rate and what may be the most efficient. Not knowing this for Gloria's system we are left with hoping that the 7000+ (ish) output of her pump at her designed head pressures. Thus, we now would then need two skimmers, plumbing, and mechanical filtration capable of these design limitations (and efficient within these parameters.

    Sooo, I first would not use the Savio skimmers. Their design is more conducive to a watergarden where low flow and minimal filtration can be incorporated within a single unit. The filter pads within these are a maintenance nightmare (at least in my opinion) and I believe that they limit flow and effectiveness of what actually is need for a koi pond. As an example, why have these pads/grate AND the barrel filer? Duplication of effort in very innefficient ways. Instead, a simply wide mouth poll skimmer, modified to be 4" gravity feed with the skimmer basket removed and an injection molding grate inserted into the pond side opening fit the bill for an effective and lower cosr skimmer. This would then feed, with 4" properly run lines to an affective mechanical filter capable of handling 3500 to 4000 gph. Thus, between the two skimmers we have enough supply for the pump specified IF these two systems are tied together.

    That being said, I would prefer two properly sized pumps, one for each skimmer feed and both of these then discharging to the Shower. I prefer redundancy for a wide variety of reasons. Now, what kind of mechanical filters? My number one choice would be an active seperation system such as a microscreen or sieve. Next best would be a passive settlement system such as a vortex (the vortex could even be modified with a microscreen if desire.). The last choice would be a trapping style filter.

    Now, there are a few points in this case that kinda puzzle me. The barrell is to trap the larger solids such as leaves and pine needles as I recal. Yet the skimmers themselves have filters that should prevent this to begin with? BUT, Gloria says that they make it through the Savios when there are large rains where the pond elevation make the water elevation within the savios higher that the mechanical filter devices. Right?

    Would it simply not be easier to install a pond overflow so the hieght of the water can never exceed the mechanical action/limitations of the savios?

    Don't get me wrong here, I still don't like the maintenance required keeping them restriction free and would opt for my previous design.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  7. #37
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Steve,
    I know this is a little off-topic, but I would like to know what you would recommend instead of "Springflow"?
    Steve,

    Thanks for the answer, but you did not answer what I was looking for.

    I understand the skimmer modification.

    So, let me change my question to; "What mechanical filter capable of handling 3500 to 4000 gph would you recommend?"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Steve,

    Thanks for the answer, but you did not answer what I was looking for.

    I understand the skimmer modification.

    So, let me change my question to; "What mechanical filter capable of handling 3500 to 4000 gph would you recommend?"
    I have used a Nitritech 911 with Answer and I have used Wave 36s with their microscreen. Although I have not used it, I really like the Cetus (A lot) as well. All of these fit the design criteria and each has advantages and disadvatages. I am trying to be politically correct, can you tell?
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  9. #39
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    The cetus would work very well for a system needing to flow 4000gpr like Ric asked about but would not work for Glorias setup as they have a max flow of around 5000gph and that is to the limit. Another company makes the ultraseive 3 which will flow around 8000 gph but this is not a reccomendation because I have no experience with how well they work.

  10. #40
    Oyagoi
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    I hope people read Steve post very carefully when building a pond and gravity feeding on the belly part of air getting trapped and need for a breather part so maybe someone can make a nice drawing but basically if your piping does this ^ you will get air trapped in top part EVEN if all under water level.

    so do not know if this is part of Gloria problem(after more explainning by gloria i would place bets on this as a problem)

    BUT

    just wanted to stress that people have a good understanding about air getting trapped in a pipe like ^ and gravity fed when building a pond.trying to get someone i know to put a small breather in their pipe even if it is a small air line tubing size.
    Paul Korf

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