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Thread: Would Like Design Help!

  1. #41
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    I hope people read Steve post very carefully when building a pond and gravity feeding on the belly part of air getting trapped and need for a breather part so maybe someone can make a nice drawing but basically if your piping does this ^ you will get air trapped in top part EVEN if all under water level.

    so do not know if this is part of Gloria problem(after more explainning by gloria i would place bets on this as a problem)

    BUT

    just wanted to stress that people have a good understanding about air getting trapped in a pipe like ^ and gravity fed when building a pond.trying to get someone i know to put a small breather in their pipe even if it is a small air line tubing size.
    I'll post a drawing I have at home of this when I get off work later.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Would Like Design Help!-gravity-skimmer-trapped-gas.jpg   Would Like Design Help!-gravity-skimmer-vent.jpg  
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
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  2. #42
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    I have used a Nitritech 911 with Answer and I have used Wave 36s with their microscreen. Although I have not used it, I really like the Cetus (A lot) as well. All of these fit the design criteria and each has advantages and disadvatages. I am trying to be politically correct, can you tell?
    Thanks for the quick response.

    I have an unused vortex, but the pond I want to fit with a mechanical filter is "in-ground" and "land lock", 36 inch deep concrete pond with limited vortex gravity draining options.




    I may have to look into a Cetus gravity fed system.

    Last edited by ricshaw; 11-11-2010 at 04:56 PM. Reason: added Cetus

  3. #43
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Thanks for the quick response.

    I have an unused vortex, but the pond I want to fit with a mechanical filter is "in-ground" and "land lock", 36 inch deep concrete pond with limited vortex gravity draining options.




    I may have to look into a Cetus gravity fed system.


    OK. time to make you think a tad Ric. What do you have to gravity drain the vortex? A simply sludge pump could be dropped in or even permanently plumbed in. Just some food for thought. I like the other option better though but you still have the gravity drain issue there too.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
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  4. #44
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    OK. time to make you think a tad Ric. What do you have to gravity drain the vortex? A simply sludge pump could be dropped in or even permanently plumbed in. Just some food for thought. I like the other option better though but you still have the gravity drain issue there too.
    I have been looking for a submersible trash pump, but had not thought about using one "in" a vortex.


    Anybody got a good source for a submersible trash pump?
    Last edited by ricshaw; 11-11-2010 at 05:28 PM. Reason: added 'trash'

  5. #45
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    I have been looking for a submersible trash pump, but had not thought about using one "in" a vortex.


    Anybody got a good source for a submersible trash pump?

    Just run a search for sludge and or cutter pumps. Here's one website in Canada:

    Pump Division - Grinder & Cutter Pumps
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
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  6. #46
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Just run a search for sludge and or cutter pumps. Here's one website in Canada:
    Pump Division - Grinder & Cutter Pumps
    I just did and found this one:

    http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1249...389/995226.pdf

    for around $150.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    I just did and found this one:

    http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1249...389/995226.pdf

    for around $150.
    Although that is a sump pump and can handles solids up to 1/2", it is not a "cutter" pump that can cut down solids to pumpable size (like leaves).
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  8. #48
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Thanks for the additional info Gloria. 27" of draw down for 7800 gph tells a big tale. an unrestricted, 4" line from pond to barrel should only results in the 2.25" (ish) draw down I stated earlier. Sooooo, either we have the wrong pump performance curve and the pump is pumping WAYYYYY more water (doubtful that any typical pond pump woud draw down 27") or, there is some other limiting factor not acounted for. I took the liberty of checking on the flow limitations of Savio Skimners (via Mike Swason at Koi Acres) here is the data he supplied:

    Stock large unit w/a:


    8" faceplate 5.5k-6k gph
    12" faceplate 7k -7.5k gph
    16" faceplate 8.5k - 9k gph

    Steve I have the large unit with the 16" faceplate on each one

    Stock small unit w/a:
    6" faceplate 3.5k gph (best guess as I have not used one this small)
    8" faceplate 5.0k gph


    Now, depending on the Savio units and faceplate which you have, these may be a limiting factor. The pads inside can also be limiting factors In addition, although your piping is 3 and 4" respectively, the flow characteristics are limited by the smallest diameter that the flow goes through. As an example, with one single 2" fitting on an otherwise 4" line, the flow characteristocs become that of the 2" line (albeit with less friction loss due to the increased piping sze). Another possibility is that there s an obstruction somewhere in the line. One common problem on gravity flow supplies are "bellies" created when the piping goes up, and then back down. Gasses collect in these and restrict flow.

    Well, fortunately or not when the 4" outlet for the Savio skimmers were added these were placed at the very bottom BACK of the skimmer. This renders the filter pads essentially useless, but doesn't significantly restrict the flow through the skimmer. Since the skimmers are contiguous with the pond I have never noted any difference in the skimmer level with the pump on or off (Unless or course I have placed quilt batting in the basket to quickly get rid of an algae bloom- another topic altogether!)


    So, the bottm line is that your 27" draw down is indicative of some restriction on the supply side of the barrel, even beyond the maximum flow of the 4" available entering the barrel since 27" of drawn down on an unresticted, 1 transfer, 4" feed would allow gravity to force upwards of 90,000 gph into the barrel and we definitely know your pump is not capable of that (that would be an industrial fire supression system pump size).

    I probably need another physics (or plumbing) lesson, but if you are pulling 7500gph OUT of a barrel that you are only putting 5000 gph INTO won't you fairly quickly come to an equilibrium with the water in the barrel just at or slightly below the outlet from the barrel? So I would think that the drawdown would be just what I have,

    So, where to go from here? The possibilities already mentioned are, the savio Skimmers themselves, a reduced fitting size somewhere along one or both of the supply lines, a physical restriction in the line(s) (leaves or needles) or a bellie in the piping that is trapping gasses.

    Here's a couple of things to try to help isolate the issue(s). Take all removable parts out of the Savio with the pump running, looking inside of the savios, do the outlets reamin fully flooded (at least a couple of inches of water over the highest point of that outlet. If not, you know one issue. If so, is the draw down still 27" or is there an improvement?

    The outlets are always flooded unless I have dropped the water level for a water change.


    Next step, run a snake down each line (each savio) one at a time to the barrel. Does any debris come out?

    Next (providing previous do not reduce the 27" draw down) Are you absolutely positive that nieght of the feeds have a reduced fitting along their lines, anwhere? It would only take 1 to really mess it up.

    Neight ?

    Finally, think back to when the supply piping was layed. I know you stated previously that the piping ran down hill. BUT, it would only take one instance of it going upward and then downward to create that bellie I spoke of.

    Now, from the barrel inlet, to the outlet, can you dry fit piping to make a direct connect temporarily?

    Not just yet, recent eye surgery so I can't hang upside down in the barrel for a while. And yes I have pulled all the springflo out before and it was messy, but no where near as messy as the bird netting!LOL!!!

    If so, please do and with the barrel filled, run the pump. This can serve multiple purposes. First, air pockets can sometimes be sucked out with direct suction. It will also allow for a visual inspection of the draw down within the savio skimmers and help in further determinations if they are contributing to the problem. If the problem is resolved here (temporarily), and IF it is does to an air pocket in the bellie of the piping somehwere, the high point of the bellie would need a breather line so that gases can escape. This line could be tapped in at the hieght of the bellie and extended up beyond the ponds water level. It might also be used for a pond overflow which I will address in my next post when I asnwer Ric's question about springflow.

    By the way, I will be at Mike Hammock's over the Thanksgiving weekend for his harvest if you want to stop by and talk further about this.
    Thanks I would love to be there, if only my family will agreel and have to work on Friday.


    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Good morning Ric.
    I wrote a very lengthy post earlier this morning in response to your question only to be distracted and then hitting the wrong key..."poof".

    Sooo, let me try again.

    Springflow is designed as a bio media for use n a low current environment. As a mechanical media, in low flow environments it does trap some crap. The higher the flow rate (velecity ) through such, the more it packs (which can be good or bad or even both). The more it packs, the more it can restrict flow, let alone the higher propensity to then clog. Although some may say that it is easy to clean, by my personal standards it isn't.

    Now, what to use in place of such? Well, on the surface, that is an easy question, my response is not. As most know, I am a very big believer in designing wholistically verses by individual components being placed in without regard to how one may affect another.

    In this specific case I would redesign the whole circuit based on desired design parameters. If two skimmers are desired and need for the pond's overall design AND they were to feed a shower filter at a given rate, I would then design for those specifics along with considerations of placement for the skimmers themselves and their return lines so as to add to desired current patterns. Next, I would look at the specifications for the shower itself. What s the max supply rate and what may be the most efficient. Not knowing this for Gloria's system we are left with hoping that the 7000+ (ish) output of her pump at her designed head pressures. Thus, we now would then need two skimmers, plumbing, and mechanical filtration capable of these design limitations (and efficient within these parameters.

    Sooo, I first would not use the Savio skimmers. Their design is more conducive to a watergarden where low flow and minimal filtration can be incorporated within a single unit.

    Sorry they are set in concrete and the flagstones around them set in concrete, mortar, whatever. I am not ready to completely redo my pond- the day may come just not yet. So what I have for skimmers is what I have to work with for the present.

    The filter pads within these are a maintenance nightmare (at least in my opinion) and I believe that they limit flow and effectiveness of what actually is need for a koi pond. As an example, why have these pads/grate AND the barrel filer? Duplication of effort in very innefficient ways. Instead, a simply wide mouth poll skimmer, modified to be 4" gravity feed with the skimmer basket removed and an injection molding grate inserted into the pond side opening fit the bill for an effective and lower cosr skimmer. This would then feed, with 4" properly run lines to an affective mechanical filter capable of handling 3500 to 4000 gph. Thus, between the two skimmers we have enough supply for the pump specified IF these two systems are tied together.

    That being said, I would prefer two properly sized pumps, one for each skimmer feed and both of these then discharging to the Shower. I prefer redundancy for a wide variety of reasons. Now, what kind of mechanical filters? My number one choice would be an active seperation system such as a microscreen or sieve. Next best would be a passive settlement system such as a vortex (the vortex could even be modified with a microscreen if desire.). The last choice would be a trapping style filter.

    I would love two more sieves but they won't fit with their plumbing into the available space.

    Now, there are a few points in this case that kinda puzzle me. The barrell is to trap the larger solids such as leaves and pine needles as I recal. Yet the skimmers themselves have filters that should prevent this to begin with? BUT, Gloria says that they make it through the Savios when there are large rains where the pond elevation make the water elevation within the savios higher that the mechanical filter devices. Right?

    Would it simply not be easier to install a pond overflow so the hieght of the water can never exceed the mechanical action/limitations of the savios?

    Yeah there is an overflow on each line(BD's), they are just small ( 1 1/2" I think) and don't keep up with some of our deluges. So I could probably change the overflow pipes sizes. Or at least tweak the height of the pipes a little bit.

    Don't get me wrong here, I still don't like the maintenance required keeping them restriction free and would opt for my previous design.
    Sorry I didn't answer back sooner , I've just been out of commission for a few days. So in simple language, try and explain the drawdown thing to me and then maybe I will understand enough to move forward! I have tried to answer some of the other questions as best I can along the way.

  9. #49
    Oyagoi
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    Gloria did you see steve post #41

    so saying the pipe outlet is from skimmer is not even going through the filter pad?
    explains about the stuff getting into barrel.

    now i do not own a savio but familar with it, faceplate is the largest BUT think it will be limited in flow not from skimmer face plate but by the sides where it flows to back>by sides i am talking area where the UV option would fit.

    so is there "drawdown" from front of skimmer (above leaf trap) to where back pipe exits?

    now DO NOT take this advice without someone with one can respond.
    if the sides are limiting flow to back where pipe exists and getting drawdown can you drill under leaf basket a big hole to help water get to back since you are not doing the mat for any reason. BUT again only a suggestion without knowing if you can drill and if YOU ARE GETTING DRAWDOWN in skimmer
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  10. #50
    Sansai
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    Thanks for the suggestion Paul. I do not think I am getting any significant drawdown in the skimmers, but I will try to go out tomorrow and measure both with pump running and 10 minutes after the pump is off( for equilibration). As I said the only time I notice any water level difference is with the quilt batting.
    I do understand about the gas trapping and I had prevoiusly questioned the guy who installed them about that. I also remember standing in the pouring rain as he skated down the pipes to make connections!!!

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