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Thread: Let if flow!

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    It is useful for anytime you want to know the potential flow rate caused by gravity between two ends of a pipe. The larger the pipe diameter and the greater the height difference.....the greater the flow.

    So if you want to flow say 10,000lph through your filter and back to the pond and the pump on the other end of the filter can do the work.......can the BD or skimmer pipe and all the filter components keep up? The flow rate increases as you cause a greater drawdown in the last chamber. That height difference causes a flow from the next to last chamber to the last chamber. The effect cascades through all the chambers Bottom line, if you want serious flow rates in an non-pressurized filter system....you want large pipes from the BDs and skimmers to feed it, large pipes between the chambers, and a large pipe feeding the pump (to prevent starvation which can cause cavitation).
    Right M,

    It's a system!!!

    Every component in a system must be selected to accommodate the system's design goal! An oversized pump will waste energy trying to do the same work as properly sized components down the line. The entire pond design will accommodate a certain fish load.

    Once the plumbing is designed, the pump can be selected that will fir the filter systems design efficiently, with a minimum of wasted energy.

  2. #42
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    It is useful for anytime you want to know the potential flow rate caused by gravity between two ends of a pipe. The larger the pipe diameter and the greater the height difference.....the greater the flow.

    So if you want to flow say 10,000lph through your filter and back to the pond and the pump on the other end of the filter can do the work.......can the BD or skimmer pipe and all the filter components keep up? The flow rate increases as you cause a greater drawdown in the last chamber. That height difference causes a flow from the next to last chamber to the last chamber. The effect cascades through all the chambers Bottom line, if you want serious flow rates in an non-pressurized filter system....you want large pipes from the BDs and skimmers to feed it, large pipes between the chambers, and a large pipe feeding the pump (to prevent starvation which can cause cavitation).
    I totally agree with all you said. But what I'm saying here is that my bottleneck is the 4" bottom drain pipe, which being long at 30 meters, only gives me an actual flowrate of 20,000 lph. But the formula you link to is way too generous, overstating the flowrate at 48,000 lph.

    It's because that formula is meant to be used when discharging water thru a pipe, where the pipe gushes out like a waterfall. When I flush my long 4" bottom drain, the flowrate of 48,000 lph I calculated from that formula, would easily describe its rate of flow. But if that flow is going to a sump filled with water, it will not be as high a rate because of the backpressure.

  3. #43
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich L View Post


    It's a system!!!

    Some systems work better than others.

  4. #44
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yerrag View Post
    I totally agree with all you said. But what I'm saying here is that my bottleneck is the 4" bottom drain pipe, which being long at 30 meters, only gives me an actual flowrate of 20,000 lph. But the formula you link to is way too generous, overstating the flowrate at 48,000 lph.

    It's because that formula is meant to be used when discharging water thru a pipe, where the pipe gushes out like a waterfall. When I flush my long 4" bottom drain, the flowrate of 48,000 lph I calculated from that formula, would easily describe its rate of flow. But if that flow is going to a sump filled with water, it will not be as high a rate because of the backpressure.
    I'm going back the equation and realize I'm using the equation differently from you, and that explains why we're both right, but we're just on different wavelengths. I was using the formula plugging in the height difference between the pond surface and the exit of bottom drain pipe into the sump. This would give me the initial flowrate when flushing the drain pipe into an empty sump. However, if the height difference between the pond surface and the sump surface were input for drop, then yes, the resulting flowrate would be the flow going thru the drain pipe while pond is operational.

    I now can appreciate the height difference between the sump and pond as without the help of a flowmeter, we could get a very good approximation of the filter flowrate of a pond. I can look at the skimmer level and measure its difference from the pond level, and get the flowrate using this equation.

    Without really understanding this equation though, I could get my flowrates really wrong. Sorry for my mistake

  5. #45
    MCA
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    In koi keeping we all make mistakes. There are some mistakes we discuss in public....and a heck of alot of them we don't.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    It is useful for anytime you want to know the potential flow rate caused by gravity between two ends of a pipe. The larger the pipe diameter and the greater the height difference.....the greater the flow.

    So if you want to flow say 10,000lph through your filter and back to the pond and the pump on the other end of the filter can do the work.......can the BD or skimmer pipe and all the filter components keep up? The flow rate increases as you cause a greater drawdown in the last chamber. That height difference causes a flow from the next to last chamber to the last chamber. The effect cascades through all the chambers Bottom line, if you want serious flow rates in an non-pressurized filter system....you want large pipes from the BDs and skimmers to feed it, large pipes between the chambers, and a large pipe feeding the pump (to prevent starvation which can cause cavitation).


    IT'S A SYSTEM!!!


    MCA's post is an example of component's that can impact a system if the aren't sized to meet the demands of the system's design. With the pump, bd, length of runs and height all selected to move a certain amount of water, selecting the size of pipe connecting components can drastically impact the system's operation!

    All components in a system must each be selected to do the job of the system effectively and efficiently.

    The main concern I have with moving more water than what's needed to do a job is the waste of power when the entire world is trying to conserve energy. Our nation is going to outlaw the manufacturing of incandescent light bulbs, has caused to place energy usage labels on appliances, and provided significant cash credits to individuals and industries to help lower our consumption. We have a certain responsibility to help out by trying to do our small part!

    First most often, when we talk about 'turn over' we are talking about water going through filtration. Ponds need a certain amount of water to be effectively filtered if the koi are to be healthy, and even robust! Often that isn't actually accomplished as we think due to our own installations inability to get the potential a manufacturer's filter and there's a place where we can get great improvement if we continue to look for improvements that simply get a system to reach synergy, rather than installing a bigger pump to band-aid a design flaw.

    The main goal of our filter systems is to remove ammonia but there are other processes happening in there. If a pond has a quiet wet filter of a proper size we find that a UV is no longer needed, but lacking that, the very sensitive bacteria needed to keep the green pond from occurring won't flourish.

    If you design a filter that will keep the ammonia down to a minimum established by aquaculture, catering to the koi hobby you are probably on the mark as far as size and water flow. Next the filter system should remove enough nitrates to meet the other standards recommended by the same people. Often a properly sized TT will do that by off gassing the nitrates.

    A properly designed and maintained filter should be able to do that with a one hour turnover. A little more than that won't hurt but there's a point where more is just wasteful.

    And, I hope you will make exceptions for us knerds that are always experimenting with new ideas!

    So you know, I usually try to post in general terms rather than give answers! I'm hoping to get folks to see why, and they can then find the answers that best suit them!

    Rich

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