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Thread: new pond design needs your feedbacks

  1. #1
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    Arrow new pond design needs your feedbacks

    Hi,

    I plan to purchase the equipment to build this pond soon. it's about 2500 gals pond with dimensions measured at 11'L x 6'W x 5'8"D. it's a liner with cinder blocks on walls above the ground. to make sure all components are interoperable together in most efficient way, please take a look at my design and give me some feedbacks. although the drawing already have most of comments explaining the design details at various points, I still do have some questions.

    1. in this application, how well will option range 1000 vortex perform? imo, it's a bit short because I would like to use two rolls of matala. it would be nice if it's 50 inches deep. this is almost like settling tank and pre-filter in combo. the matala rolls is to reduce the solids from entering the pump. my original plan was to DIY a settling tank to meet my requirement but I am worrying about the coating on the concrete in such small space.

    2. I have black and green matala rolls for the settling tank. these will be acting as pre-filter sorta. Would double green rolls work better? during feeding season, I plan to clean these rolls on weekly basis or on demand. solids will be removed via gravitational force on daily basis if it works, else the AquaFlo will be use to pump the solids out daily. if it works as design, I won't flush the settling tank often but rather flush it on weekly or on demand basis. there is no point of replacing the water in the settling tank more often than needed unless it's absolutely neccessary for reasons of maintaining optimal water condition.

    3. Is Ultima II 6000 gals too big for this purpose since I also have a matala bio-filter chamber? would the 4000 gals be sufficient for this purpose? the intentional purpose of Ultima II is to use it as first stage bio/mechanical filter before the water feed into bio-filter chamber. It also clean up the water a bit before the partial water return to the pond for current and jetstreams. since I plan to clean the bio-chamber every six months or so, I thought it's best to have 6000 gals instead of a Utima II 4000 gals. the matala bio-filter is equivalent to about 10% of the pond water volume.

    4. any suggestion on in-wall skimmer? I think savio skimmerfilter is over killed. it's too bulky for my limited space anyhow. I am trying to avoid using the "no niche skimmer" since I'd like to keep the pond clear of objects. btw, is there any drawback in-wall skimmer? is it harder to clean. my current pond don't even use the skimmer. I removed it over a year now but have not notice any impact.

    5. if I miss anything, please let me know and thank you reading this.

    Steve
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails new pond design needs your feedbacks-latest-koi-pond-single-pump.jpg  

  2. #2
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Steve

    There are a few suggestions I would like to make. Send me a pm.

    Mike

  3. #3
    Jumbo
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    Steve-

    I think that the way you are using the round Matala in an undersized vortex followed by Ultima will yield good active mechanical seperation of solids, but the schedule described as "on demand" will hopefully became "daily" which will make you think that passive seperation may have been a wise use of space. If you're in California wouldn't getting the 3500 be a better choice seeing as they are in stock locally? Have you priced Matala for that tank? Whoa Baby!

    The bio tank you are building out of block also? 39 1/2 x 24 Matala upright with 48 x 39 full sheets of grey laid on top? ~$1,000.00. Are the bio tank dimensions on your drawing shown correctly?

    Mickey the windowman

  4. #4
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitten View Post
    Steve-

    I think that the way you are using the round Matala in an undersized vortex followed by Ultima will yield good active mechanical seperation of solids, but the schedule described as "on demand" will hopefully became "daily" which will make you think that passive seperation may have been a wise use of space. If you're in California wouldn't getting the 3500 be a better choice seeing as they are in stock locally? Have you priced Matala for that tank? Whoa Baby!

    The bio tank you are building out of block also? 39 1/2 x 24 Matala upright with 48 x 39 full sheets of grey laid on top? ~$1,000.00. Are the bio tank dimensions on your drawing shown correctly?

    Mickey the windowman
    Hey Mickey, I don't know who is selling Matala out there, but here the Matala for the Bio and settling chamber is $750.00 plus tax. Not bad for 3 times the surface area of Japanese matting.

    Russ

  5. #5
    Jumbo
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    Russell I just grabbed numbers out of the buttculator...$30 per half sheet and 60 per full. The real size of the chamber will change the quantities anyway. Heck he might even be planning to use full sheets vertically, but somebody would talk him out of that I think.

    I priced 48" rounds for the spirex 3500 a couple years ago and they were more than 300 a piece with shipping. I think they are no longer made in that size. I don't keep up like you do.

    The difference in the way the Matala is used, no spacing, differs from the jap mat, used with spacing, I think based on the idea that Matala is easy to clean. But wouldn't it maybe be better if used spaced and cleaned as infrequently as jap mat?

    Mickey the windowman

  6. #6
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    Hi Mickey,

    the webpage stated option range 1000 can handle pond size btwn 2000 to 3000 gals, which fits my pond size? option range 3500 is too big. I live in CA but ain't got no space. Do you think I should use option range 2000 instead? how do you mean by undersize?

    for the bio chamber, I plan to use cinder blocks and seal it with 3 coat of sanitred as recommended by Koiczar. I will cut the piece by halves and stack them standing upright. the gray piece might need to cut more to fit the top. the dimensions of the bio chamber works out to accommodate 24 half pieces of matala with length of 39.5". I plant to build a rack with pvc pipes and stack the matala up right on top of the rack. this way, the bio chamber will have plenty of room for sediments to settle there.

    thanks,

    Steve

  7. #7
    Jumbo
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    Hi Steve-

    Getting solids to settle is something of a struggle isn't it? First you have to feed the fish good food and not too much of it. Second you have to get the waste into the drains and keep it from settling there. Once you get it to your settlement chamber you have to slow it down so it will...settle. If it doesn't have weight and if it doesn't slow down it will not settle and it doesn't matter if you're swirling the water or not.

    The main ingredient in determining if you can settle waste out of your water flow is volume of the settlement chamber. If you have enough volume it will work. The aquaculture guideline is that settlement requires 15 minutes dwell time, how long it takes to go through the chamber, so the settlement chamber should be 1/4 the amount of the flow. Divide your pump's output by 4, Steve. See? A little undersized?

    Wait! Vortexes are miracles of efficiency. Nope. They are improvements of efficiency. They do, because of a combination of effects on the water and the waste, settle more waste at a higher flow in a lower volume than rectangular chambers. But they are not miraculous.

    Search for Spirex Optima and you will find the manufacturer's website. It will state that the 1000 series is meant to be used with a maximum of 1000gph flow through it. See? A little undersized.
    Umm, Steve...A LOT. So, in your design the vortex becomes only a flushable container for the Matala rounds which will have to strain the little shits out of the water. This is why I figured you would end up with daily maintanence, if the black and green can even catch enough crap to keep it from going right on through at your pumped velocity.

    Optima 2000 would be an improvement, allowing a reliable capacity of 2000gph for settlement. Adding Matala rounds could work efficiently maybe, but I think the black would do little. Can you fit 2, 2000's? Using one for the bottom drain and one for the skimmer line? both can feed into the same pump you are planning but you would need more valves to isolate each vortex for complete flushing while the pump is running. BTW, Don't use three ways on supply side. And also, guess what the 3500 is cheaper than 2, 2000's, offering the same beneficial capacity for your settlement entertaiment. And 3500 or 4000gph is about enough for your pump. All of this is still relying on the numbers published by a manufacturer. Fudge to the good side.

    Have you heard anybody say their vortex was too big?

    Mickey the windowman

  8. #8
    Sansai
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    Hello, I like many things in your design. I like the settlement chamber to bead application much better than straight bead filter. Also like the bio is seperate from the mechanical filtration. I know that you like Matala and think it is a great submerged media but personally like aerated bio reactors filled with K1/ Kaldness these days for even lower maintenance and self cleaning - no mats to clean ever and I also like the aeration. Just something to consider.

    I also would upgrade all of the 1 1/2" lines to 2" lines. The cost difference is minimal and the benifits are there.

    One more design criteria thought and that would be to use two pumps instead of one. One pump on the bottom drain circuit and another on the skimmer circuit. The redundancy is great if any problems occur. I would also suggest that each pump is on a different breaker in the house electrical pannel. If one does pop the other can still be working. The bottom drain feeds the TPRs for cirulation and the skimmer would feed a waterfall or bakki shower to return like a waterfall.

    Not here to say to change everything but just a few comments for your consideration.

    Rick

  9. #9
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    Hi Mickey,

    thank you for the detailed comments. I see why you think it's undersize vortex now. if you look at the drawing closely, there are two ball valves before the water enter the Artisian pump. the ball valve attached to the vortex is designed to limit the amount of water the pump can draw from the settling tank. the second ball valve is design to control the water enter the pump from the skimmer.

    I agreed that the trick is not having the water blast thru the settling tank but it's equally important not to have the water run thru the settling tank too slow. too slow flow rate in setting tank will cause the solids to settle in the bottom drain pipes. imo, this design offers the flexibility to adjust a flow rate thru the settling tank at optimal level so that solids settles in the tank and not in the bottom drain pipe.

    I currently have similar setup in my first pond and it's working great. the main different in this new pond is that I am planning to use Ultima 6000. in my first pond, I use japanese mat in pre-filter btwn the pump and vortex. it's too much manual labor on clean up the pre-filter in my current pond. I hope modified the design with Ultima 6000 helps eliminate some of the manual labor when cleaning.

    imo, only the water that carries the solid waste should flow thru the settling tank so it's not really need to have an oversize vortex or too big vortex. in fact, to help the water circulate more effectively, intake pump should take at a few openings such as skimmer and mid-level pond.

    one improvement I think appropriate would be having the pre-filter setup at the skimmer such as savio skimmerfilter but I think it's an overkilled product too. my current pond doesn't have any pre-filter in the skimmer and it works out well too.

    thanks for the feedbacks again,

    Steve

  10. #10
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    Hi Rick,

    don't want to miss the opportunity and regret later. can post some pix and details on your aerated bio reactor? I'd like to learn more on your design. I use japanese mat in my first pond but it was a pain to clean up. the stuffs sticked in and hard to get them out so I want to try out matala. plus I heard good feedbacks on matala.

    as some other people already pointed out too, 2" pipe is the better way to do the draining. it's faster. the problem I have is that I have a spare 1/8 AquaFlo pump and it's only have 1.5" unions on them. I think I can do some with 2" pipe and some with 1.5" but agreed 2" is a better way to do this.

    my original design has duo pumps for redundancy with shower filter and a lot more elaborated but my better half wasn't too crazy with the idea of taking too much of the tiny yard we have. in CA, duo pumps for redundancy has its limitation because we have rolling back out here so portable generator might be a better alternative. I understand what you meant though. having duo pump is more reliable for situation such as vacation.

    thank you for the feedbacks/compliments on the design,

    Steve

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