Large indoor pond/river-like project HELP needed

[OliGM]

Hi everyone,

I am in need of your experience with indoor ponds. It is actually my first pond and I am hoping for some help from knowledgeable people.

Context is..
- Project is taking place in a petstore
- I want it to be much more in length than in width
- I want it to look more like a slow running river than a wide, square or rectangular pond
- It will be sitting on ceramic tiles
- Air ventilation is very good in the store so we are not afraid of mold growing anywhere
- Turtles will have their hot spot centered at the end of the river, heatlamp coming from the ceiling
- I will be using Hagen Pond Liner 60' x 15' or something like that
- I was planning to use Hagen Laguna Powerjet 2900 on it, in addition to their new large pond filters i can't find pictures of

My questions are..
- How would you recommend to hold it in place?
- Would I need bottom drains on it even if the pond/river is only about 3-4 feet wide averaging a maximum of 20 inches deep ?
- What do you think of the shape I am planning to make ?
- According to your experience, will it be really hard to make it ?
- I thought I would put smaller koi and goldfish on the first part (Part A) of the river and bigger koi, large goldfish and several adult aquatic turtles on the Part B of the river, does that sound like a good idea ?
- I have about a month at most to complete it, working about 20 hours a week on it. I'll do whatever possible to achieve it.


I hope you can help me with that project... i'm puzzled.

Here is an idea of what I want to achieve...



*** and sorry for my bad english, it is probably sometimes hard for you to understand since it is not my first language.....

Thanks ; )

[mitten]

Oligimus-

Many of us have problems with the language. You're fine.

Is the idea that this will need to be dismantled in the future and should not ruin the ceramic floor?

Holding the liner in the place will be easy if the walls you build stay where you put them.

There may be some trouble actually taking care of the fish and turtles together unless there is some other quarantine facility. Are you aware of quarantine procedures?

Bottom drains will help you to extract waste from the pond/river bottom. What drains were you going to use. I can't figure out how they could be used with a ceramic floor.

I've seen koi and turtles together like this in petshops before. Good luck.

Mickey the windowman

[OliGM]

Hi Mickey,

I would really prefer it to be possibly dismantled in the future. I doubt i would have to, or it may take several years before I need to, but it may happen. It would better not ruin the ceramic floor, indeed.

I have been told to use concrete bricks as large as possible to hold the liner in place...... would it move ? According to the fact the pressure on the walls is related to the water depth, it should be easier to hold, am I right ? Now because water is flowing in a direct stream would it make pressure stronger..... ?

We have also been keeping fishes and turtles together for some years now without much problems. We keep them in smaller ponds and for that reason we need to clean the filter every other day....... we will be upgrading the filtration and the pump's efficacity.

Is there any other alternative solution to bottom drains ? With only 16-18 inches water depth should I be worried about extracting waste ? cause neither can I figure out how I could use drains on a ceramic floor........ my pond would have to be spaced from the floor and I'm guessing that is too much trouble.

thanks for your time, that's well appreciated
Oli

[B.Scott]

Oli,
This isn't going to be easy. Bottom drains on a tiled floor mean you to lift the whole thing off the ground to get them underneath. I don't see this as possible.
2nd, having the waterfall in the middle means every thing behind it stays on the bottom and rots unless you take the time to vacuum it out every day.

My main concern is what kind of filtration are you planning to use?

Realise you are going to need to move masses of water to get the effect you are looking for. to have anything resembling a stream-like flow is going to mean having a filter system that can cope. If you don't you will end up with masses of foamy bubbles. This in turn will leave you with fish that are hard to see as well.

Please tell me you are not planning to put a layer of gravel of pebbles on the bottom. If you are this is going to make things MUCH WORSE.

I think you are perhaps being a bit too ambitious and should seek something more traditional.

B.Scott

[OliGM]

hi B.Scott

I don't really see the bottom drains as being a possibility. I would avoid that idea. As for the waterfall, I was thinking about some kind of rapids/cascades/rafts? (sorry i can't find the word to that) only to lower the water lever a little bit between part A and B of my pond.

As for filtration, here it is, the Laguna Pressure-Flo
http://www.cascadekoi.com/pressureflo.html

I was thinking to plug one or two of those on a small pool pump.

Quote: Please tell me you are not planning to put a layer of gravel of pebbles on the bottom. If you are this is going to make things MUCH WORSE.

Don't worry, it didn't even cross my mind

Quote: I think you are perhaps being a bit too ambitious and should seek something more traditional. B.Scott

Now that may be right, but I want it outstanding and uncommon. I have also been given the idea that I could have a koi/goldfish/aquatic turtle on part A, and the rest being for freshwater rays and arowanas. I would have two different filtration systems, one cold, the other warmer.

thanks Scott !!
Oli

[B.Scott]

I looked at the filter. It's completely inadequate as far as koi go. Personally I wouldn't use it even on my 2000 liter quarantine tank. The filter is basically a crap-trap. It will filter solids but then acts as a tea-bag forcing water through the trapped junk. As far as biological filtration goes it offers next to nothing. Biological filtration is the most important. It you go with this system you are going to end up with allot of grief and sorrow (not to mention sick fish!)
For what you propose I think the only real option is a bakki shower. with bacteria house media (BHM) It can be pump fed, needs no settlement and you can pump masses of water through it with no trouble... In fact the more the better, The down side? It's not cheap. It looks simple but the media is very dear. But it will get the job done.

Do a search of this site for "bakki shower" and BHM and you will get a lot more info.

B.Scott

[dick benbow]

I think the design shows an emphasis on watergardening...lots of great concepts to please the ears and eyes but from a serious koi keeping pond..
Scott has pretty much explained that position. Not all KB viewers are strictly koi but many that started as watergardners have gravitated over to more serious koi keepers.

If this pond is cement and more permanent then you'll want to seriously reconsider...if liner...for the expense to reconfigure...you may want to proceed...and with a coupla years of experience under your belt realize that
keeping koi is keeping water and Scott made some good points.

keep in mind that shallow turtle resting spots without turtles (after a while they may not fit into your plans) might end up being a place where koi could get involved with predators....also are you aware that frogs, salamanders, turtles etc that might give your body of water additional interest can harbor and carry disease?

My advice is to compromise your initial plans to allow for more serious biofiltration. Daily cleanings of ponds gets old after while. the easier you make it to do chores the more likely you are to do them.water falls and streams need to be on one end to create current and roll waste down a graduated slope to the opposite deep end where waste is removed thru bottom drains. Bottoms need to be designed to expedite wastes into a mechanical trap like a bubble bead or settling sump to waste. Then the water can be run thru a bio filter to repurify, and then back to the waterfall or shallow stream for oxygenation. keep in mind oxygen needs to be high level for fish and filter bacteria. The depth of the pond is also important. Even the most mild climates need atleast 5-6 feet.Many times filters which tend to be built double of the size you think you need (sage) can be skillfully hidden under the floor of an attractive building (pergola) for rest, cover and viewing. Keep in mind any pump around water has to have a GFI (Scott can tell you what it's called in europe) circuit protection for the electrical.....also in japan koi (carp) are loved because of the lore of fables where they fight waterfalls and in suceeding turn into dragons. All fanciful stuff, but in truth koi will come out of the pond and up the stream, making them vulerable to predation. Not a good idea after you have favorites and invested a few years in their care!

and last but not least what you are looking to put into your yard is what most countries call an "attractive nuisance"...which means little kids with no common sense will be drawn to it and may drown leaving you liable.....so you may want to incorporate a 6 foot high fence with locking gate.

I believe the best book you can get on the subject of koi is peter waddington's Koi Kichi...covers the topics relating to koi, filtration, pond construction about as good as you can get. It's not inexpensive, but about half now of what it was when it first came out....good luck...I'm glad you asked...and i hope our very narrow viewpoint ( while learned) will be of help
and you will give it due consideration. All the best.....

[OliGM]

Thanks Scott and dick benbow,

It will take me some time to rearrange everything (mostly rearranging my ideas on paper), but keep in mind that pond is not mine, i am no koi expert and neither do i want to become one. I would just like to keep them in good health. As far as security goes, this pond has been designed for indoor IN A PETSTORE. I'm not worrying too much about kids drowning in there, the walls around the pond will be large enough to avoid such events and we have plenty of employees during the day to prevent that kind of accident.

i'll come back with some more ideas a little later,
thanks again
Oli

[sharpey999]

Hi Oli

You could try and incorporate a pool and waterfall system using preformed pools like you get at shows and carefully hidden liner waterfalls connecting them. If you imagine using concrete blocks in a stair fasion with ply board or other wood placed on top, these would be connected to the pools and covered in liner. Each could then be raised off the ground and a bottom drain placed underneath.
With a little thought this could look quite natural and be covered with foliage pond plats and rocks etc.

Alternatively and possible the costliest option would be to create your idea in a lego block fashion with all of your pipes and drains in place all covered in heavy duty plastic. This could then be fibreglassed and would not ruin the store floor and could be removed later

good luck

[GloriaL]

I'm a relative novice, but it seems to me that it would be relatively easy to place retro bottom drains in each section and run the piping out the side at the bottom. Of course with a running streamyou would have to put the BD's at end of each section. You wouln't have the circular currents that you get in a pond w/ traditional BD's and TPR's. I would think it would work better than nothing, tho.