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Thread: Polyurea sprayed in a dirt hole on geo-textile fabric

  1. #21
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    Well I can't answer for how others apply their material or the way in which the equipment is used. I think it would be a safe bet to say that part of what the training involves is how to use the equipment. You see with a rig like those guys usually have, there are very specific ways that the machines are used. They are usually high pressure machines that involve adjustments to the material output and so on, not to mention the use of an impingement gun that goes along with a high pressure machine. Of course there are a bunch of other, not as obvious things going on during the spray process with that sort of equipment as well. Does that mean that the difference between that sort of equipment and application process requires training and ours does not? No. Otherwise we wouldn't offer instructions and tech support. In order to do anything new or unfamiliar, one needs to learn how in a proper manner. What makes our system fit the realm of the do it yourselfer, is that it is affordable AND easy to learn how to do. That doesn't mean it's easy enough to neglect the instructions. I emphasized that a post or two ago.

    It is our experience that a minimum of 50 mils of material is what it takes to thoroughly cover the geotextile we offer. Any less and you run the risk of pin holes and such which will lead to failure. So, you'd have to train yourself to not want to move onto another area of the geotextile fabric until you have covered the area you set out to spray.

    If you are a DIY type of person and have patience, you can do this. It doesn't sound to me that you let many details, if any, slip through the cracks. I would be more than happy to send you more information, but I ask at this stage that you phone me Monday in order to speak a little further in those regards. You can get our phone number from our web site, which I am not allowed to post in threads. If you can't find it PM me and I'll get it to you. I look forward to speaking to you.
    Butch
    Pond Armor

  2. #22
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    169
    Any less and you run the risk of pin holes and such which will lead to failure. So, you'd have to train yourself to not want to move onto another area of the geotextile fabric until you have covered the area you set out to spray
    So what you are saying is that the only failures you would typically see is pin holes where you did not spray enough on while you are spraying. And you want to spray the 50 mils before you move on to the next section?

    Also, what about safety for the installer. I have seen claims that polyurea is very toxic when putting it down.

    As for the product itself, is it a blend or is it pure polyurea? There have been several threads I have followed about blends that make the product cheaper, but not better, so was currious about that as well.

    What colors do you offer, just black or others as well.

    Also, you mention that you sell the lining that you spray the polyurea onto. But it does not appear on the website. IF you dont have it, where do I find it?
    Last edited by dOHd; 07-15-2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Another question

  3. #23
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    Typically yes. Toxicity while spraying? Yes. No matter what you're spraying you should always use proper protective equipment. In regards to the chemical make up of our Polyurea or our epoxy, I just do not go into any details there. Those are trade secrets. Right now all we offer is black. We do not know what the future holds for colors. No, the geotextile does not appear on our web site as of yet because we are re-working the shopping cart area. Once completed, any missing products will appear as well.
    Butch
    Pond Armor

  4. #24
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    169
    In regards to the chemical make up of our Polyurea or our epoxy, I just do not go into any details there. Those are trade secrets
    Trade secrets are one thing, but the chemistry of the blend you are using is another. If you use more of the blend than the polyurea, then legally you can not call it polyurea. I beleive the percentage was stated as 15-85. So you see, the chemistry of your blend does make a difference. And you did bring your "solution" to the table for discussion.

    So lets discuss.

    First you are claiming a cost of $3.65 a foot for your product, complete with the underlayment. At the stated website prices, you might get close to that, without shipping and the underlayment.

    Just for product and shipping it is $4.15 a foot. Then you need underlayment. Then you also need to either purchase or rent the gun to put the materiel down with. That will add at best 30-90 cents a SF depending on the size of the pond you are applying the materiel to. Then add the proper safety equipment, and you are in the 5-6 dollar range. And that is at the 50 mil thickness.

    So either your pricing is wrong on your website, or your claims that you can do it for about $3.65 a SF complete with underlayment, is much less than honest.

  5. #25
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    Ok, well I'm not going to split hairs here, nor am I going to get tugged into some sort of argument, but we haven't even discussed labor costs yet either. I was strictly speaking materials. If you choose to add shipping, equipment or anything else you are free to do so. Then you can divide that by however you wish and come up with any permutations you want. You can even add the cost of lunch and a snack if you want. But the materials only will cost you about $3.65 per square.

    Again, as far as what my materials are made of, no matter how you couch the phrase, I am not going to divulge the chemical make up of them. They are our trade secrets. Our materials do work and I am under no obligation to tell you how we produce them or what combination of components are used. The product is called Pond Shield-FSP (fish safe Polyurea). Yes I call it Polyurea because that is what it is. So it must by your own definition fall within what you refer to as legal or whatever, though I am not sure where the legal basis comes from. In any event, if you want to start to question my honesty and integrity without the basis to do so, then I will move on.
    Good day to you.
    Butch
    Pond Armor

  6. #26
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    169
    Butch

    When one figures the cost of materiels, the shipping is included in the cost of materiels. and if one needs special equipment to put down said materiel, that cost must also be added to the total price.

    See, the way you figure it, it brings the unwary shopper in with huge cost savings in their eyes. But when they then get the bill for all the add ons, then that leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

    And see, then too you are comparing apples to oranges. With the cost of a turn key polyurea job quoted as 10-12 a SF, and you advertise the do it yourselfer can do it for 3.65, that is not being totally honest, now is it? Polyurea cost, yes. But not finished cost on the wall at 50 mils thick. I know of several polyurea ponds that have been sprayed for about $6-8 a SF, and the thickness would be in the 120-140 mill thickness. So please, lets compare apples with oranges.

    THats kinda like someone offering to build you a pond for $12,000. Then after some of the work is done, you find out that the filter, pump, drains and liner were not included in the price. You assumed that the person was honest enough to quote you a finished price, but instead they baited you with something not so honest.

    The prices I have added to arrive at that cost are the actual costs of what it would cost me to buy the product, and have it shipped to me per your website. That is the true cost of materiels. That price did not include the liner, which your cost quote did include. All the other add ons I added are needed to put the materiel down, not cute little things like lunch. These are items that you have to have to put the materiel down. So they need to be added to the cost of installation.

    As for the legal definition of what can be called a polyurea, without having to state blend, is put out by the PDA. You know, the polyurea guys. That keeps the dishonest mixers of product from calling their product polyurea when instead it truly is a polyurea/polyurethane blend. A blend that is much less costly to produce, and has different uses and limmits, quite different than polyurea.

    Something else I have noticed, when someone keeps hiding behind the "its top secret, company secrets, trade secrets" that has me worried. There are no secrets in the world of polyurea. There are only a handful of polyurea makers, and they are all well know. Some make pretty good stuff for ponds, others make really good stuff for other purposes, but are not really good for ponds.

    And as far as your Fish safe plug, I dont know of any pure polyurea that is not fish safe. Unless the applicator screws up and sprays incorrectly.

    So please, dont act like I hurt your integrity, you did that when stating a low cost to try and sell a product, a cost that is not born out in reality. Hell, thats like selling a car, me agreeing to buy it, and you delivering it without tires and steering wheel.

  7. #27
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    You haven't hurt my integrity at all, but why you want to start arguing about apples and oranges is beyond me. My original quote on page 2 was:

    you could apply the material at about $3.65 per square foot for Pond Shield-FSP and the proper geotextile fabric.

    I'm not trying to hide anything. As I said, add whatever other costs you wish to the over-all project and divide by total square feet however you want. What ever works for you. If the price then becomes something you are uncomfortable with then DO NOT purchase it. I do not care one way or the other. My original reason for stopping at this thread was to answer questions about the product not argue semantics in regards to what ever other costs may or may not be involved and I certainly do not owe anyone a recipe sheet for the product we produce. As for the fish safe plug, we chose that becasue even though you might know Polyurea is fish safe, there are still plenty of people that do not know it is. If any of this makes you uncomfortable or worried then as I said, do not purchase. If you think there are no secrets in the world of Polyurea, just start asking the same sort of questions to any of those manufacturers you spoke of and see how far you get. I may sell you a car, but I am not offering to pay for your insurance too. That is your responsibility.
    I'm done here.
    Butch
    Pond Armor

  8. #28
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    169
    Common Butch, dont run away, there are stil questions that need to be answered.

    What you said on page 2 is
    Not including the cost of the gun, you could apply the material at about $3.65 per sqaure foot for Pond Shield-FSP and the proper geotextile fabric.
    THat is a quote.

    Now, "you could apply". That means you have it at the job site. That means either you brought it to me, or had it shipped in. Now, take away "the cost of the gun", and then add the proper geotextile fabric. Even without the fabric, you are already in the 4.17 range. So lets say 30 cents a foot, and we are up to $4.47. Now add disposable gloves, respirator, the cost of taping off the areas you dont want sprayed, and you begin to hit 5 bucks a foot. Now, if I happen to be doing a 1000 sf pond, the cost of the sprayer would be about 60 cents per foot. Now you are in somewhere between $5.50 and $6 a foot without labor. Of course they can rent a machine to do the pond, but that would set them back 1500-2000 or so. Now, for a true do it yourselfer, that is the true costs of putting in polyurea yourself. Your time is worth what you are willing to add to the cost. Or not. So by your own quote, minus the gun, you can apply our product for $3.65. AT the very best you are misleading, and at the worst, maybe dishonest, as I have shown where that is just not correct. And instead of admitting your misposting, you chose to be flippant and run?

    So while I applaude your efforts at making it sound like you can spray your pond for 1/3 the cost of having someone do it for you, the true costs just dont make it so, now do they.

    BTW, I cant help notice that the price of the goods actually being put on the pond, at your prices, are over $100 a gallon for the polyurea. Kinda interesting when you do the math, and get behind the glitz and glitter of misleading advertising.

  9. #29
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    No, it's just a pointless conversation now. It doesn't matter what I say at this point. You already have it all worked out in your own mind. Good for you. I can't wait to see pictures of your pond. Post them when you're done so we can all look at them. I have other things to tend to now.
    Butch
    Pond Armor

  10. #30
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    169
    Well Butch, what about your pond. Is it Polyurea, or liner? Did you spray it yourself, or did you hire it done?

    See, Butch, I am not just some little stupid schmuck you can sell your stuff to. I know a bit about Polyurea.

    See, I donít have to guess at what they taught at the schools, I went, paid my money and learned. Guess what, the biggest part of the class was not the different equipment and how it works like you guessed. Guess what Butch? They spent three whole days covering the prep work that goes into the spray job, what to look for, what to avoid (sharp corners aunt one of them ) and to keep from having serious problems in the finished product. And I am not some slick salesman that gets the customer through the door with false advertising on price, only to stick it to them later with add ons.

    And you know what, they also taught us to do math properly, not like you are attempting to do via semantics. And while the use of too much Polyurea is expensive, the use of too little is frowned upon very highly. That is why I am amazed that you would recommend your product at 30 mils over concrete, and 50 mils over liner, totally contrary to accepted industry standards. Hell, If I sprayed Polyurea at 30 mils, I could drop the prices down by half, and still make some money.

    You claim it is Polyurea. OK, then publish the percentages of your chemistry. Donít give a fiddlers damn about the trade secrets you cut it with, just want to know the percent of pure Polyurea.

    I understand if you donít know, you are just the salesman.

    Oh and l like your Q&A area. What happens when I spray my pond at 50 mils, and it still leaks?

    Answer: Quite simply, you screwed up. Its all your fault, none of ours. We are telling you to use less than the industry recognized standard for your application, and you just didnt follow our instructions. You must have left pinholes. Yes sir, thats it, you left pinholes. Now you have to get more materiel to cover the areas that are too thin with more materiel. Now, we do have a product warranty, but guess what, the product didnít fail, the installer failed. So you are now stuck with a leaking pond. But of course, we could sell you more materiel to fill in those pesky pin holesÖÖBut that of course would raise the price per square foot, but that would be your fault not ours.

    Now Butch, do you really know what the major cause of pinholes is? Guess what, it is standing at one area and putting on materiel just like you recommended. You never want to put on more than 10-15 mils at a pass. You paint it on just like you do with a car paint job. A bunch of thin coats. At 50 mils, you need to be putting on 4-5 coats, not just one massive coating like you stated. So by your very own admission on how to apply your own product, you are setting the customer up to fail. And I have a problem with that scenario.

    As for me, Iíve sprayed a few gallons here and there. But the biggest part of what I do is follow up on other Polyurea installations that have failed. Failed why??? Not because the person didnít know how to put it down, but instead didnít follow the rules. Like proper site prep. Like spraying properly in thin coats and not 50 mils at one pass. You name it, Ive seen it. You wanna see delamination? Pinholes? Product failures? Installation nightmares?

    Funny enough, I charge anywhere from $5.50-15/SF to spray a new job depending on what prep work needs to be done and the size of the project. But I charge $20-45/SF to clean up other peoples messes and do it right.

    So yep, I have problems with the way you represent Polyurea. It makes the rest of the industry look very bad.

    Best Regards

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