R/G installer Mike Garcia ready to build his first Koi Pond

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters I have been following this thread without saying a thing but this statement sums up how I feel about the whole situation. Here in the Bay Area the are several large irrigation supply companies that have started selling pond kits. They are essentially Aquascape type kits. I have accounts with these companies and, even knowing I have a Koi business, their sales people have tried to convince me to buy these products and install them saying that I could make a lot of money. I made the effort to explain to some of these sales people that they are not selling a Koi pond but rather a water garden. Upon further explanation of what a Koi pond really is I just got blank stares. The point is that it is just a product to them and they push it as an easy install to their lanscapers as a way to make a lot of money. As long as this mentality exists in that industry things will never change. It is OK to make money but you MUST deliver a product that is worth the money you charge and it MUST be what the consumer wants and expecxts. If they don't know what they want then you, as a professional, must take the time to educate them. Building a Koi pond should not be a get rich quick scheme.

Russ,
I don't know about up North but down here in Socal, at every single home show, we have these big R & G type ponds on display, and everyone see's them and go oh how beautiful I want one of them in our yard. Now of course at the home show they have these BIG Koi in them swimming around. These water features were of course just set up and will only run for 1 to 2 weeks. i am sure they are doing massive water changes to keep it looking so pristine. With this type of advertising people dont even think to ask "is it ok for Koi to be in this shallow R & G water feature".. They have already seen koi swimming around in it.

Six months to one year later: they are calling all the "real koi dealers" and are asking why are my fish dieing? why do they have soars? why do they keep getting eaten my preditors? And of course the customary answers, so sorry, pond is a water garden NOT a koi pond, over stocked, go bye some goldfish, take the rocks out, do water changes, dig it deeper, add a real filter.. Then you get the customary answer, my pond is a eco friendly pond, I do not need any of that, my installer told me that we only need to cleen it once a year, and that the koi dont need any food, they will live off the plants. And we do not need to do water changes.

12 months to 18 months later
Same person calling, all the exact same answers..

18 to 24 months later:
same person calling, same questions, but this time they are actually listening, and they finally say what do I need to do to make this a healthy and easy to maintain "koi pond".

That is were I have a problem, false advertising, people dont ask some questions, since they already see koi swimming in the R & G at there local home show...

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikegarcia I would imagine if you had to choose between the IPPCA and ADI, you would have to go with the association which is there to serve and promote trditional Koi Ponds.

I would choose AKCA, ZNA, BKKS and Shinkokai.

Back to your pond. I look forward to seeing your design specs.

[lypope]

Sounds like we're being asked to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. I have nothing but disdain for ADI, and the IPPCA has most decidedly NOT demonstrated any desire to learn about or build KOI ponds - so I'd have to say neither. I'm with Jim North - I'll stick with the members of the AKCA, ZNA, Shinkokai - the folks I know and trust. You know, KOI people...

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by lypope Sounds like we're being asked to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. I have nothing but disdain for ADI, and the IPPCA has most decidedly NOT demonstrated any desire to learn about or build KOI ponds - so I'd have to say neither. I'm with Jim North - I'll stick with the members of the AKCA, ZNA, Shinkokai - the folks I know and trust. You know, KOI people...

Dito, I am with Jim and Lynda... Love the bold part.

[mikegarcia]

Nancy When I began building ponds, they were advertised to me by ADI as being easy to build and quick to build (one day). ADI has a 20 step program which is normally encouraged to be completed in one day, A photo of each step is shown to the potential installation contractor, with the 20th step showing lots of dollar bills being handed to the contractor for a completed job. Is this false advertising? ADI's promotional photo's show LARGE Koi fish in their water gardens. The Koi even seem to be enjoying being fed water melon by hand, All of this Koi activity is being blessed by non other than Doc Eric Johnson from Georgia. I have met Doc Johnson several times and have even attended fish health seminars taught by him. He is at the ADI events. He sure is convincing, as he is the guy who wrote the book on fish health care. When a landscaper who knows nothing about Koi or even fish,(other than the goldfish they had as a kid), Sees the guy who wrote the book on fish, het up there on stage and promote ADI's way of building ponds, Who can blame the ADI pond builder for having tons of confidence that their way is the only right way to build ponds? ADI has thousands of ponds in the ground. The literature shows Koi in these ponds, all backed up by a degreed,Doctor who wrote the book on Koi. Sounds pretty convincing to me. Actually, I've been around a long time and yes, I bought into it. I appreciate this forum for helping me come to some amazing realizations. No matter how hard you want to beat me up, I appreciate you and JR and Steve Childers and Kent Wallace and all the others who have been graciously reading and responding to my posts! I know your message is important and I don't want to work against the Koi hobby. I am also a writer and intend to do my part through education to the water garden world. I have just begun to learn about the beauty of the Koi Kichi world and intend to spread the message. Am I right to assume that the traditional Koi Pond hobbyist is philosophically like ADI, in that both Koi Kichi's and ADI feel their way is the only right way of building ponds? I could be wrong. If I'm wrong, then I will side with the group which practices tolerance. I will not condemn water gardens if they are intended for just that use...a garden. I don't believe you need a traditional koi pond to house small gold fish. Likewise, I don't feel a shallow watergarden is appropriate for Koi. Exactly why? During Burt Ballou's presentation, He showed a picture (slide) of an out house (which respresents a water garden. Personally, I think ALL Koi ponds and watergardens are toilet bowls, with the difference being that the koi pond flushes. The only way to house champion koi is with an actual koi pond. Thank you all for your direction. Please advise where I am mistaken.

[mstrseed]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikegarcia He sure is convincing, as he is the guy who wrote the book on fish health care. When a landscaper who knows nothing about Koi or even fish,(other than the goldfish they had as a kid), Sees the guy who wrote the book on fish, het up there on stage and promote ADI's way of building ponds, Please advise where I am mistaken.

Johnson wrote "A" book on fish heath not the book! There are many better books arround on fish (koi) health.

Just because "A" preacher preaches from a pulpupit does not mean it is truith!

Mike your leaving yourself wide open for all your getting, people are trying to lead you in a propper direction and your keep talkin how good you have it in your org.

[mikegarcia]

If I had it "good" Do you think I would be here? I was told that the ADI way was the only way and to convince you, well, here's Doc Johnson. What was I supposed to believe? In our society, What do you do when the Doctor speaks? You listen!

[mstrseed]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikegarcia If I had it "good" Do you think I would be here? I was told that the ADI way was the only way and to convince you, well, here's Doc Johnson. What was I supposed to believe? In our society, What do you do when the Doctor speaks? You listen!

Get a second opinion...............

[CarolinaGirl]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikegarcia If I had it "good" Do you think I would be here? I was told that the ADI way was the only way and to convince you, well, here's Doc Johnson. What was I supposed to believe? In our society, What do you do when the Doctor speaks? You listen!

no, you don't listen just because he is a doctor, especially when many of his ideas are outdated and go against current lines of thinking.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by CarolinaGirl no, you don't listen just because he is a doctor, especially when many of his ideas are outdated and go against current lines of thinking.

Bingo..........