R/G installer Mike Garcia ready to build his first Koi Pond

[schildkoi]

Mike, Mike, Mike,

I want you to seriously "think" about something here:

Quote: all backed up by a degreed,Doctor who wrote the book on Koi.

Dr J is educated in Vet. medicine. Most vet schools do not or have limited knwoledge concerning fish, there are other majors that specialize in this area (fisheries and wildlife biology as an example). I am not attempting to minimize Dr. J, vets not Dr. Js contributions. Yes, he wrote a very good koi health book, for its day. Those that have been around koi for awhile have some "issue" with Dr. J, but that isn't the point nor do I want to sidetrack from trhe point I want to make here.

Please think about something here, what about vet school teaches a prospective vet about koi (or even fish) environment? Medicine is about diagnosing and treating disease. There is nothing taught in vet school regarding design or engineering as it relates to structures nor flow dynamics. How about even filtration dynamics?

Now why, just because a vet (any vet) makes statements that are really outside of vetinary medicine would I listen? Perspective Mike, perspective.

Steve

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikegarcia Am I right to assume that the traditional Koi Pond hobbyist is philosophically like ADI, in that both Koi Kichi's and ADI feel their way is the only right way of building ponds? Please advise where I am mistaken.

Nope not true. There are many many ways to build a koi pond. Rocks inside the pond is not one of them.

Filtration for a koi pond- Take your pick, bead filters (many to choose from), Nexus filters with Answer or Eazy(again your choice), bakki type showers(pick a media, any media), DIY upflow barrell filters, super long j-mat or matala runs (Japanese style) and I'm sure there are plenty I missed.

Skimmers for a koi pond- Pool skimmer, Savio skimmer with filter, no niche skimmer, again your choice.

Bottom drains for a koi pond- 4" bottom drain with air or without. Your choice but I'd go with air.

Pumps for a koi pond- Skies the limit here. How much do you want to spend and how may times an hour do you wqant to turn the pond over (should be at least 1x but feel free to go higher)

Liner- concrete block with poly or pondarmor or any other type multi part sealer that is non leaching and koi safe, gunite that is also sealed like block, epdm liner, fiberglass and I'm sure there are some I missed.

Shape- Again its your choice just be careful about dead spots.

The above barely touches on the choices of materials when building a koi pond. I didn't even mention UV's and tprs etc. The important part is that it is all designed as a system to work together to provide the best water quality possible for your koi.

For instance dont buy a 7000gph pump and hook it to a bead filter that can only flow 3000gph max (you'd be surprised).

[dOHd]

If I may touch on something Steve said about the IPPCA.

I was invited to belong to the club several years ago, and while I was interested in the stated objective, I am also cautious by nature. And while I attended one of the initial “pondlawhatever”, a watch and wait was the best move. And after watching them grow a bit over the last two years, I have made the decision not to belong for one major reason.

My wife puts it best. Qualification without quantification is worthless.

In plain language: When you have a professional organization that rates its members, usually you have a panel of its peers that makes the decisions as to who is rated and how highly. If you dig into the Master Pond builder designation you will find that the two owners of the organization (last I checked) were the only master pond builders at the IPPCA. I called them the owners because they started it, and they will run it as they see fit. They do have a board of directors, but they are really more a formality than a real organizational guidance.

My question is who qualified them as master pond builders? Well shucks, they did. So let me see, I now am asking two guys that declared themselves "master pond builders" to join their club and they and they alone will decide if I am good enough to be in their club? And if they decide that they don’t like my hair cut, who I am married to, who I have legal problems with etc, then that keeps me from being a good pond builder, or a master pond builder like they are? And it allows them to black ball me? After spending too many years working for someone else that dictated my future, not interested in giving someone else that power that is not qualified to have it.

The way it has been set up and run, I don’t see an upside to belonging to the IPPCA, only down sides. I suspect that is also one of the reasons for all the hype, why they are really not growing as quickly as they had planned. Too many politics and not enough professionalism at the top. Then too, they allow people like HAH in as experts in their field?

Change it from a good ole boys club to what it was promised to be, and I would gladly join. But from what I have seen first hand, not interested.

So while on the surface they sound like a great idea, the substance does not meet the promise.

d

[kent wallace]

Ok Mike, here's a potentially non-politically correct analogy. I'll use the automotive industry because that's where I grew up for over 25 years. You said "ADI has thousands of ponds in the ground."
My appologies in advance to all of you who like American cars. Actually there are a few I like but not many.
GM has more automobiles in the US than any other manufacturer. Does that make them the best.
Of course not.
American automakers are barely within 10 years of the "state of the art" when it comes to quality and current technology. If you want real current "state of the art" you really should buy a Honda. Based on your statement, the larger sales of 10 year old technology is as good as the state of the art technology from smaller companies that are actually doing something with integrity. GM sells and markets based on guilt and romance but never on being the state of the art.
ADI and their equivelant is where the KOI KICHI were 10 to 15 years or more ago. To say their marketing hype makes them a real and credible choice of the informed is not accurate.
We're not talking about a philosophy of pond construction techniques here but time tested and proven concepts that work in the direction of "WHAT THE NEEDS OF THE FISH ARE".

"Fish first, all other considerations second". That's a philosophy.

[dOHd]

Mike, I am not trying to beat you up with this, its just you are looking at the whole pond building world with a set of blinders. When you take them off and really get the broad view of what you were missing, you will see what is really going on.

For example:

“photo of each step……….. with the 20th step showing lots of dollar bills being handed to the contractor for a completed job. Is this false advertising?”

Not false. But far from truthful. Don’t get me wrong. Some make a killing putting in pieces of shite. And the customer is tickled pink because it looks awesome. But its like the $295 paint job for your car. Looks great when you pick it up, but in two years or so, its over. Paint peeling, rust showing through. But at $295, what did you expect? Now, pay $2000 for that same paint job, and see how you feel. In many cases you can put in just as large a pond correctly for the same money, and have something that will not be a nightmare later on. Besides, think about it. Is that not the way just about all scams are presented. And make sure the photo of everyone smiling really big with a wheelbarrow of cash has more screen time than any of the other photos or steps. Hell, even repeat it several more times during the photo presentation.

Besides, who really pays many thousands of dollars in cash for major projects? Not any one I know. They either pay by check or credit card. So by the very context of all those smiling faces and the wad of cash, it is very dishonest and far from reality. But it makes a major impact on those watching it, as you have shown by your post.

“ADI's promotional photo's show LARGE Koi fish in their water gardens. The Koi even seem to be enjoying being fed water melon by hand”

Funny thing about Koi, you can put 20 in a 50 gallon aquarium, and they will literally eat themselves to death. Seen it happen too many times to rely on if the fish are eating or not to figure out that they are healthy or not. Koi are one of natures hardest to kill fish, so presenting a way to barely keep them alive is not my idea of a healthy fish.

“All of this Koi activity is being blessed by non other than Doc Eric Johnson from Georgia. I have met Doc Johnson several times and have even attended fish health seminars taught by him. He is at the ADI events. He sure is convincing, as he is the guy who wrote the book on fish health care.”

First off, he did not write THE book, he wrote a book. And for its time, it was very good. Problem is that the book was written way before he ever got involved with Greg et al. And the reload is nothing but an update on the old one. Problem with the update is that there is a lot of info that is no longer correct, but instead of fixing the problems, he just added different materiel to the book to quickly get it out. Over all, still not a bad book, but not THE book on Koi health. There are several out there much better and more accurate and a better value for the Koi keeper.

I have been around Doc many times over the last 6 or 8 years. He is funny, engaging and entertaining.

“When a landscaper who knows nothing about Koi or even fish,(other than the goldfish they had as a kid), Sees the guy who wrote the book on fish, het up there on stage and promote ADI's way of building ponds”

Yeppers. After two or three days of pumping up at the world cup of pond building, the landscaper is now a professional pond builder. Dig a hole, throw the dirt around the pond to build it up so you don’t have to dig as deep, throw a liner into it, add a skimmer and biofalls, thirty tons of rock, then add water and fish and you, in two days, have built a professionally built pond. And some of them really look pleasing to the eye at first glance.

“Who can blame the ADI pond builder for having tons of confidence that their way is the only right way to build ponds? ADI has thousands of ponds in the ground”

And each year, thousands come back up as well. After years of trouble and ugly looking crap, many ponds are ripped up and filled in by customers that cant stand the nasty hole in the ground. Many have flaws in them when they were built, things that they forgot or just didn’t do to get to step 20. After all, you need to be in and out in the same day or two to be able to make your millions. And many are cleaned out of gravel and stone, and rebuilt properly by someone that does know how to build ponds properly. But the customer has spent twice as much on getting what they really wanted in the first place. That is because at ADI, their ponds are the cookie cutter approach. Lots of rock and gravel for everyone. The stone and rock cover a lot of sins. And if you only present one option, what is a customer to choose from? Pond building is not like ordering the value meals at McDonalds.

“The literature shows Koi in these ponds, all backed up by a degreed Doctor”

How is the Koi in these ponds all backed up by the good doctor? Does the customer get a warranty from the good doctor that the fish will be healthy in his pond? And for how long? I have seen his ADI pond at KoiLand several times. Not my idea of what anyone would ever want. Sounds nice though if you don’t look at it.

Many people do things for many reasons. And money is a big motivator. Much of what is reported Doc says at ADI functions differs from what he says at other functions. So IMHO, Doc would make a wonderful politician as he will play to what ever crowd he is on stage to play to.

Don’t get me wrong, he is a wonderful guy and I have enjoyed the time listening and watching him over the years. We just have some vast differences on the philosophy of life, and Koi.

d

[mikegarcia]

Steve, Kent, JR, DoHd, Russell, Carolina girl and the many other who have been gracious enough to respond. I want to thank you all! Your words are very encouraging to me. As a contractor, I have a responsibility to make money to pay the bills. On the other hand, I am now seeing the need to balance this with the desire to do the right thing. I hope you can see a little better why the typical landscaper is not a bad guy. He was instructed in one way to build a water feature. This has the blessing of a noted, book writing "koi Doctor". All this is magnified by the lure of big, quick money. My eyes are opened by attending pond events such as ***********, which exposes a watergarden installing landscaper to things like bead filtration and UV lights. I feel that my contracting abilities are enhanced by being able and qualified to add Traditional Koi Ponds to my menu of services which my company offered. My wish and desire is that someday, ALL landscapers would become educated in the building of a Traditional Koi Pond. Even if they don't want to build one, perhaps they could offer to service them. One thing nobody has addressed is this...Is ADI a marketing genius? I think they are. Whether you love or hate them, I think that is one positive about them, which has in a very interesting way, initiated bringing me where I am today respecting the pond world. Do I agree with the way ADI ponds are built? Yes, If you are building a water garden. But this is not the best environment to raise champion Koi. I remember doing a pond cleanout on my backyard pond and being disgusted with the knee deep fish poop that I was about to bucket out of the waterfall box. It was a dark chocolate liquidy brown color. It is not very glamorous. This is a big reason I want to install a Traditional Koi Pond. Like Burt showed in his slide, All waterfeatures are toilet bowls, Traditonal Koi ponds happen to flush. Right now, My pond incorporates the Russell Watergarden filtration box. At least I can "flush" the waterfall box. But the herons still get a fish or two because my pond is not super deep, but it does have a cave. I feel bad that if a person was to tear out a large number of watergarden type ponds, this would contribute to landfill mass. I don't know if this should be another thread, but I will ask this anyways. Is there a way to retrofit a watergarden to become more Koi friendly? What steps are necessary to make a watergarden more koi friendly?

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikegarcia Steve, Kent, JR, DoHd, Russell, Carolina girl and the many other who have been gracious enough to respond. I want to thank you all! Your words are very encouraging to me. As a contractor, I have a responsibility to make money to pay the bills. On the other hand, I am now seeing the need to balance this with the desire to do the right thing. I hope you can see a little better why the typical landscaper is not a bad guy. He was instructed in one way to build a water feature. This has the blessing of a noted, book writing "koi Doctor". All this is magnified by the lure of big, quick money. My eyes are opened by attending pond events such as **************, which exposes a watergarden installing landscaper to things like bead filtration and UV lights. I feel that my contracting abilities are enhanced by being able and qualified to add Traditional Koi Ponds to my menu of services which my company offered. My wish and desire is that someday, ALL landscapers would become educated in the building of a Traditional Koi Pond. Even if they don't want to build one, perhaps they could offer to service them. One thing nobody has addressed is this...Is ADI a marketing genius? I think they are. Whether you love or hate them, I think that is one positive about them, which has in a very interesting way, initiated bringing me where I am today respecting the pond world. Do I agree with the way ADI ponds are built? Yes, If you are building a water garden. But this is not the best environment to raise champion Koi. I remember doing a pond cleanout on my backyard pond and being disgusted with the knee deep fish poop that I was about to bucket out of the waterfall box. It was a dark chocolate liquidy brown color. It is not very glamorous. This is a big reason I want to install a Traditional Koi Pond. Like Burt showed in his slide, All waterfeatures are toilet bowls, Traditonal Koi ponds happen to flush. Right now, My pond incorporates the Russell Watergarden filtration box. At least I can "flush" the waterfall box. But the herons still get a fish or two because my pond is not super deep, but it does have a cave. I feel bad that if a person was to tear out a large number of watergarden type ponds, this would contribute to landfill mass. I don't know if this should be another thread, but I will ask this anyways. Is there a way to retrofit a watergarden to become more Koi friendly? What steps are necessary to make a watergarden more koi friendly?

Mike,
My sincerest wishes are that your eyes get opened up and that you can learn. There are many styles of "teaching" going on in theses threads, some "tough" and some easier going. If you learn the lessons that are being given, you will be ahead of the game.

Now, let's talk a little about watergardens and retroing such as a Koi pond. You can make a watergarden more friendly towards koi but it is basically a total rebuild to make it an actual koi pond. Why? well, depth and structure are the keys here. Increasing the depth and doing away with the bowling of the form to vertical walls (both for the needs of the koi actually require differing construction methods. In addition, the liner used in the original build will not fit the same footprint with the added depth. The exterior landscape rock could be reused and perhaps the biofalls but that would be secondary to the chosen filtration and equipment for the bottom drain and skimmer circuits.

The skimmer may be reuseable but the submersible pump would not likely be incorporated into the system.

Oh, by the way, it was my slide presentation that utilized the comparison between an outhouse and a modern Toilet.

Another thing you should consider here. The Koi folks talk about the differences between watergardens and koi ponds. Even watergardens can benefit from a few modifications utilized in the modern koi pond. Utilizing a 4" drain plumbed out beyound the pond to a settlement system such as a sump pit or even to a low point. Remove the R&G from the bottom and the pond becomes exponentially easier for the owner to maintain. In addition, the water volume that was once stagnet within the R&G is no longer so and thus adds to the "real, useable" volume of the pond.

As to you question concerning ADI being a marketing genius? There have been many Genius' in the world through history who were able to market themselves. As an example, just think about some of the dictators or even elected officials who were able to "market" themselves. Being a Genius at marketing does not make it a good thing since the truth always prevails.

Steve

[lypope]

Mike, Home and Garden Television (HGTV) filmed an episode of their program "New Spaces" on Bob Winkler's pond build. I believe it's scheduled to air sometime in January. Bob is the epitome of Koi Kichi and his pond is absolutely spectacular. I was fortunate to be invited to see the pond and, along with Russ and Kari Peters, see the first release of koi into this state-of-the-art environment - purpose-built for them. It was quite the "moment" and all of us had tears in our eyes - as well as some serious pond envy. There's a thread here about the entire build and I'd advise you to read it: New Arrivals in Colorado

[dOHd]

Mike

“As a contractor, I have a responsibility to make money to pay the bills. On the other hand, I am now seeing the need to balance this with the desire to do the right thing. I hope you can see a little better why the typical landscaper is not a bad guy. He was instructed in one way to build a water feature. This has the blessing of a noted, book writing "koi Doctor". All this is magnified by the lure of big, quick money.”

As a contractor, you also have a responsibility to listen to what the customer wants you to build. If they want a rock garden with water, then that is what you need to build. Not everyone wants a proper Koi pond. And that is OK. Not everyone wants or can afford a lexus either.

But as a contractor, it behoves you as a professional to listen to what the customer wants it to look like, then suggest how it can be designed to work well. All they are interested in is the looks. It is up to you to combine those looks with a well functioning system. That is where your expertise comes in to play. And you don’t become an expert over a weekend at a pond BS’a.

There are many good ponds that fall in this between zone. Many that have some stones in the pond as well. None will have gravel. It is up to you as a professional pond builder to suggest and incorporate functional additions to the pond to make it a healthy environment for the fish.

You also have to make sure the customer gets value for the money they pay you. Most of the holes in the ground I have seen the ADI builders build do not have that value to the customer. They might think so at first, but in the long term, its not there.

I have several we are in negotiations to rebuild at this time. One, is a swimming pool conversion done ADI style. The guy has spent 36 grand on the finished product, and the thing has never had more than 2 feet of water in it. After removing 25-30 tons of rock, the reason is simple. The liner has split where he seamed them together. Ripped actually. And the installer can not be found and will not return phone calls. How can I fix it for the guy, when he is already out that much money?

The other one last night looks like a homemade homeowner pond, done by an ADI grad using a 200 gallon preformed. You don’t even want to know how much he charged for that one.

Made lots of money? Yeppers, they sure did. And I am sure they made it to pay bills. But look at what they left behind. And there are too many of them like that.

By your post, it would seem you are different. I congratulate you on that. And it sounds like you have a conscience. That is good too.

Somewhere between the ADI pond and steves proper designed Koi pond is where you will build most of the ponds. Hopefully it will be further towards steves side.

Best of luck.

d

[MCA]

Let's all avoid pontificating about water gardens and what is wrong in the world. That will fill and endless forum and not get the first pond fixed.

We have the very rare opportunity to help soemeone who wants to do it right. Lets all make the most of it.


Mike, what do you want to know or want comments on.

recommended depth?
dimensioning of bottom drains to pond size/shape?
advantage of gravity fed versus pump fed filters
different types of filters and their media

You already have a list of koi pond reference material (books, mags, videos)

Speak up!