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Thread: liner vs granite vs cinder blocks

  1. #1
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    liner vs gunite vs cinder blocks

    if budget is not an issue, which one is better to have? what are the pros and cons?

    I know liner is easier to build and much faster to complete the job. anyone has a liner pond that last over 10 years?

    Steve
    Last edited by Steve Nguyen; 12-03-2007 at 02:20 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    Oh yeah... it would be a very expensive pond to build with granite. :-) so read it as gunite.

    steve

  3. #3
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Two seperate issues on ponds...

    structural: what holds the pressure of the water versus the pressure of the surround ground.

    sealant: what keeps the water in the pond.


    If you do a liner over bare dirt walls, you are depending on those walls not giviing way when it rains...etc. Better know your soil conditions VERY well to avoid a cave in!!!!

    Another bare earth choice is to put in a geo textile fabric and then spray polyuera or othe sealant.



    Another choice would be to the excavation, put in a rebar cage and blow in shotcrete or gunite....just like a swimming pool. Of course the BDs, skimmers and other ports will be for koi ponds...not swimming pools. You can then seal it CIM, plaster, polyurea, an epoxy...etc.

    Another choice would be poured concrete floor with block walls. After the walls are rendered smooth, you can seal them with CIM, plaster, polyurea, epoxy.....etc.

    Another choice would be poured concrete floor with poured concrete walls. The concrete could have a water proofing agent so that a sealant may not be necessary.

    There are probably a few other ways to build a nice deep koi pond.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  4. #4
    Honmei
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    MCA hits on a number of issues concerning structure. Tim Zuber (the premier polyurea guy) has 3 words he likes to describe me with..."structure, structure, structure." Tim will also be the first to say that polyurea is a sealant and not a structure in and of itself and for vertical walls, shooting polyurea onto geotextile fabric really isn't a sound engineering decision. He has some great pictures of a collapse utilizing this method on vertical walls (he didn't want to shoot it but got a good waiver prior to doing so).

    The issue regarding concrete block (still reinforced) is that this should NOT be utilized in an earthquake prone zone. Structural concrete or gunite will "float" so to speak during an earthquake while a block construction is more prone to fractures.

    Liners on bare vertical walled koi ponds (3'+) are really a disaster waiting to happen.

    Steve Childers
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  5. #5
    Sansai
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    I would agree with steve here and add that liner done "correctly" is also expensive. Liner properly done has a concrete "retaining wall" structure behind it for much of the side structure and and it should extend below the frost line. All the drains, skimmers, mid-water drains and TPRs should also be anchored in concrete. The liner should just be the sealing layer. It's downfall is the short life expectancy(longer when protected and installed properly) and it's vulnerability to puncture and cracking over the long haul.
    Here are some shots of ponds ready for liner.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails liner vs granite vs cinder blocks-dwyer-81-960x720.jpg   liner vs granite vs cinder blocks-dwyer-86-960x720.jpg   liner vs granite vs cinder blocks-bandle-32-960x720.jpg   liner vs granite vs cinder blocks-m38.jpg   liner vs granite vs cinder blocks-m40.jpg  


  6. #6
    Nisai
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    Red face Pond Decision

    If your in California gunite may be the best as described before in the ability to "float".
    Solid pour wall that are reinforced are also good, but setting forms to hold back xxxx tons of cement is not for the amature to attempt.
    Liners, however, present many potential issues, aside from puncture, and seals around drains and TPS's. If you use Potasium Permaganate it will deteriorate the liner.
    In addition, the folds will be a perfect place for the nasty bacteria to flourish!

    Go Gunite! Personally I'd avoid CIM, because I've used it, and it very difficult to work with. You have a half-hour "pot-life" after mixing, and youd better mix it well.

    Ed

  7. #7
    Jumbo farne230's Avatar
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    Hands down IMO, gunite with a full polyurea linear. Remember no matter what is used proper thickness, reinforcement, spacing and placement are the keys (find a great structural contractor and structural engineer). Plan it out with all your needs and do not look back.
    Bob

  8. #8
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    seems to me that building a liner pond is also sturdy and long lasting if it's built like what Kent is doing. true, the root puncture is always a risk so need to stay away from trees and other invasive plants such bamboo plants.

    I would think the cost would be much less with liner too.

    Steve

  9. #9
    MCA
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    Yes...because Kent is using concrete, block..etc. for structure (strength) and liner for sealant. Never expectant liner to be structure (hold back dirt or water pressure).

    Sure liner is probably lower INITIAL cost. But when you have replaced it in X years....and maybe would not have to do that with fiberglass or polyurea or CIM......maybe it will be more expensive in the long run.

    Personally I would never buiild a koi pond for the long haul with liner as the sealant. Personally I want to learn enough about fiberglassing to use it on a pond. Our koi cousins in the UK do that all the time.

  10. #10
    Oyagoi CarolinaGirl's Avatar
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    I am sort of considering using some other sealant on my new pond. I don't know what yet....and I don;t know what my budget will permit, but I am going to explore all the options.

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