hire a builder to do a 10,000 gal polyurea/gunite pond for $35k ? - Page 4 - Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine

aquitori · 12-12-2007

$35,000 for a gunite pond with polyurea....With no digging probably get the gunite and rebar done for around $7,500 to $9,000 and the polyurea for about same...so maybe around $16,000 you can get those 2 aspects done for that cost...Filtration is another beast...

moikoi · 12-12-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquitori

$35,000 for a gunite pond with polyurea....With no digging probably get the gunite and rebar done for around $7,500 to $9,000 and the polyurea for about same...so maybe around $16,000 you can get those 2 aspects done for that cost...Filtration is another beast...

you got the best price

JasPR · 12-14-2007

Kent it can't be tied into. The old pond is block- solid cores. The end that would be removed is exposed as it is a raised pond ( 3 feet above ground, 4 feet below ground. But that is the end the new section would built off of. The entire structure would be one pour with the cage from the new area going right into , and filling the floor and walls of the old pond. In other words, the new pond would be built within the old pond, using the old pond as the excavation for the new cage. It would be no different than pouring a pond on a hard excavated working floor and side wall supports.

Mike, I was expecting to hear 20- 25 M for the excavation ( two days at $1200 a day) . Demo , One day and two guys with jack hammer and backhoe ( $2500- $3000) one day to rough and then rebar, pour 18,000- 20,000. Can't see $60,000 - no way, no how. JR

luke frisbee · 12-14-2007

I was wondering myself about tying in the rebar to the existing pond....
are you sure you don't want to do it yourself? It's very therapeutic

kent wallace · 12-14-2007

JR that does seem excessive. You could always move your pond to Vegas.

JasPR · 12-14-2007

Kent, I have found that people who live in places where there are a lot of pools to begin with- Florida, Arizona seem to get their excavations and pours done for a song compared to areas like mine, were there are maybe a dozen companies in the entire state. We use the same cheap labor out here as they do elsewhere with a few trained experts running the crews. Our insurance costs are higher and maybe the home prices are higher? Certainly taxes are higher!! Maybe this is just a case of supply and demand and lack of competition? I'm actually thinking of flying in a Brit to GC the job. JR

PS Kent, I have a leaking fiberglass indoor pond that I use for recent imports and winter holding on some fish. It is 2 X4 construction and marine plywood covered in several coats of fiberglass and black gel coat. The holes in the structure are three bottom drains, three returns, a 4 inch transfer pipe from a large filter and two for the pumps. They are all finished with typical bulk head fittings. After many years, two of the bulk heads are leaking ( the big transfer pipe and the one to a pump). They are glued in to hard piping and tightening the bulkheads is not helping. I was going to try aquarium silicon and build a seal around the bulk head itself but I have a feeling this is not going to hold? The plumbers goop was another possibility/thought. Have any suggestions? JR

kent wallace · 12-14-2007

Is the leak around the outside threads between the bulkhead and tank? Are the nuts on the bulkheads on the inside where they can be removed or on the outside where the pipes go in? Usually leaks are from areas of distortion between the places where surfaces fit snugly. It's not the tightness but the distortion. Sealants are really there to take up the spaces between the snug fit areas.
Silicone sealants aren't actually very good in comparison to eurethanes. Silicones great advantage lies in "extrememe" heat and cold resistance which ponds don't have and silicone sealants don't really stick to surfaces well. The polyurethane sealants that we use are usually moisture cure, adhere better and are stronger structurally. If the leaking is between the bulkheads and tank wall you could back off the nuts, remove the old gaskets, clean everything with 91% rubbing alcohol and apply polyurethane around the threads between fitting and tank and snug them back up. Wipe off all visible excess with 91% rubbing alcohol so nothing is visible. Visible "ooze" is always a source future problems because it is attached to the sealant below it. Over time that "ooze" will loosten or be pulled at and cause the sealant below it to be removed.
Many times fittings start to leak after a period of time because of alkalinity leaching which slowly forms tracks to the outside and expands over time eventually causing a leak as opposed to the almost invisible "sweating" that started it. Expansion and contraction can also create pathways of sweating that can start this.
Unlike other sealants, polyurethanes are nasty to work with. Use lots of latex gloves and throw them away often and in a secure place.

JasPR · 12-14-2007

The leak is between the bulk head face ( inside of tank) and the fiberglass wall. I think the washer is there and not on the backside ( unless there is one on each side?). I can lossen the nut but then the bulk head is still glued in place ( to the connecting PVC pipe)? I see this is going to be a major project!
What about fiber glassing over/around the bulk head and into the inside of the bulk head?

Thanks for your input. JR

kent wallace · 12-15-2007

Fiberglass won't really stick to the bulkhead. When you loosten the nut is there any give? If so you could completely clean around the head of the bulkhead and gasket when loose and push polyurethane sealant in around it as much as possible, then tighten it up and a small amount should squeeze back out. Then completely wipe the outside with alcohol and see what happens.

JasPR · 12-15-2007

Morning Kent. I tried something different- epoxy paste.

I cleaned the area around the bulkheads with a brillo pad and water. And did the same with the bulk heads. Once dried I applied the two step paste ( A & B type epoxy) as a monolithic application over the bulk head and onto the fiberglass. The manufacturer says it adheres to PVC and fiberglass and is approved for potable water. It set up hard in 15 minutes and has now dried over 12 hours. Awful smell! The finished look is pretty good and looks like a water proof sealing of the entire area from Bulk head opening to one inch onto the fiberglass? It is dark grey on the black walls, but one bulkhead is in the filter and the other is against a part of the wall where the aeration rises from.
I will try some goldfish for toxic reaction before moving any of my koi into it. Any idea about toxicity of these materials? I my be overly concerned but I had some problems with the fiberglass itself many years ago when I built this thing. The styrene was a problem for a while. I researched the ingredients in this product ( Duro industries epoxy paste cement) and it seems very toxic when mixed but inert when dry? JR

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12-12-2007	#31 (permalink)
aquitori Daihonmei Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: DA 408 Posts: 7,419	$35,000 for a gunite pond with polyurea....With no digging probably get the gunite and rebar done for around $7,500 to $9,000 and the polyurea for about same...so maybe around $16,000 you can get those 2 aspects done for that cost...Filtration is another beast...

12-14-2007	#33 (permalink)
JasPR Oyagoi Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,466	Kent it can't be tied into. The old pond is block- solid cores. The end that would be removed is exposed as it is a raised pond ( 3 feet above ground, 4 feet below ground. But that is the end the new section would built off of. The entire structure would be one pour with the cage from the new area going right into , and filling the floor and walls of the old pond. In other words, the new pond would be built within the old pond, using the old pond as the excavation for the new cage. It would be no different than pouring a pond on a hard excavated working floor and side wall supports. Mike, I was expecting to hear 20- 25 M for the excavation ( two days at $1200 a day) . Demo , One day and two guys with jack hammer and backhoe ( $2500- $3000) one day to rough and then rebar, pour 18,000- 20,000. Can't see $60,000 - no way, no how. JR

12-14-2007	#34 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	I was wondering myself about tying in the rebar to the existing pond.... are you sure you don't want to do it yourself? It's very therapeutic

12-14-2007	#35 (permalink)
kent wallace Nisai Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 88	JR that does seem excessive. You could always move your pond to Vegas.

12-14-2007	#36 (permalink)
JasPR Oyagoi Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,466	Kent, I have found that people who live in places where there are a lot of pools to begin with- Florida, Arizona seem to get their excavations and pours done for a song compared to areas like mine, were there are maybe a dozen companies in the entire state. We use the same cheap labor out here as they do elsewhere with a few trained experts running the crews. Our insurance costs are higher and maybe the home prices are higher? Certainly taxes are higher!! Maybe this is just a case of supply and demand and lack of competition? I'm actually thinking of flying in a Brit to GC the job. JR PS Kent, I have a leaking fiberglass indoor pond that I use for recent imports and winter holding on some fish. It is 2 X4 construction and marine plywood covered in several coats of fiberglass and black gel coat. The holes in the structure are three bottom drains, three returns, a 4 inch transfer pipe from a large filter and two for the pumps. They are all finished with typical bulk head fittings. After many years, two of the bulk heads are leaking ( the big transfer pipe and the one to a pump). They are glued in to hard piping and tightening the bulkheads is not helping. I was going to try aquarium silicon and build a seal around the bulk head itself but I have a feeling this is not going to hold? The plumbers goop was another possibility/thought. Have any suggestions? JR

12-14-2007	#37 (permalink)
kent wallace Nisai Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 88	Is the leak around the outside threads between the bulkhead and tank? Are the nuts on the bulkheads on the inside where they can be removed or on the outside where the pipes go in? Usually leaks are from areas of distortion between the places where surfaces fit snugly. It's not the tightness but the distortion. Sealants are really there to take up the spaces between the snug fit areas. Silicone sealants aren't actually very good in comparison to eurethanes. Silicones great advantage lies in "extrememe" heat and cold resistance which ponds don't have and silicone sealants don't really stick to surfaces well. The polyurethane sealants that we use are usually moisture cure, adhere better and are stronger structurally. If the leaking is between the bulkheads and tank wall you could back off the nuts, remove the old gaskets, clean everything with 91% rubbing alcohol and apply polyurethane around the threads between fitting and tank and snug them back up. Wipe off all visible excess with 91% rubbing alcohol so nothing is visible. Visible "ooze" is always a source future problems because it is attached to the sealant below it. Over time that "ooze" will loosten or be pulled at and cause the sealant below it to be removed. Many times fittings start to leak after a period of time because of alkalinity leaching which slowly forms tracks to the outside and expands over time eventually causing a leak as opposed to the almost invisible "sweating" that started it. Expansion and contraction can also create pathways of sweating that can start this. Unlike other sealants, polyurethanes are nasty to work with. Use lots of latex gloves and throw them away often and in a secure place.

12-14-2007	#38 (permalink)
JasPR Oyagoi Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,466	The leak is between the bulk head face ( inside of tank) and the fiberglass wall. I think the washer is there and not on the backside ( unless there is one on each side?). I can lossen the nut but then the bulk head is still glued in place ( to the connecting PVC pipe)? I see this is going to be a major project! What about fiber glassing over/around the bulk head and into the inside of the bulk head? Thanks for your input. JR

12-15-2007	#39 (permalink)
kent wallace Nisai Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 88	Fiberglass won't really stick to the bulkhead. When you loosten the nut is there any give? If so you could completely clean around the head of the bulkhead and gasket when loose and push polyurethane sealant in around it as much as possible, then tighten it up and a small amount should squeeze back out. Then completely wipe the outside with alcohol and see what happens.

12-15-2007	#40 (permalink)
JasPR Oyagoi Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,466	Morning Kent. I tried something different- epoxy paste. I cleaned the area around the bulkheads with a brillo pad and water. And did the same with the bulk heads. Once dried I applied the two step paste ( A & B type epoxy) as a monolithic application over the bulk head and onto the fiberglass. The manufacturer says it adheres to PVC and fiberglass and is approved for potable water. It set up hard in 15 minutes and has now dried over 12 hours. Awful smell! The finished look is pretty good and looks like a water proof sealing of the entire area from Bulk head opening to one inch onto the fiberglass? It is dark grey on the black walls, but one bulkhead is in the filter and the other is against a part of the wall where the aeration rises from. I will try some goldfish for toxic reaction before moving any of my koi into it. Any idea about toxicity of these materials? I my be overly concerned but I had some problems with the fiberglass itself many years ago when I built this thing. The styrene was a problem for a while. I researched the ingredients in this product ( Duro industries epoxy paste cement) and it seems very toxic when mixed but inert when dry? JR