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Thread: Epoxy Coating for Concerete Pond

  1. #41
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    Oh boy Answers:


    1. Pond Armor is a very small company with a couple of employees. If you don’t believe me call the company.
    How many staff memebrs would make you comfortable? Pond Armor has enough staff to run and not everyone answers the phone. Some are involved in the manufacturing of epoxy and polyurea, others are in shipping and receiving and others are involved in the manufature of equipment.. If you must know we only need less than 25 but that number even fluctuates during the season. Go ask the Linex company to see how many employees they have. It's actually fewer than us. Below 20 I believe. It's on their web site.

    2. They cannot be found in any manufacturing database as a Epoxy/Resin manufacturer
    We are not required to list in any database of manufactures that I know of. Heck we aren't even in the yellow pages. What does that mean?

    3. They cannot be found in the California Corporate Registry as a California Corporation, which is strange since they operate in California.
    That's because Pond Armor is a DBA. In fact I am owner of several California corporations (all of which are my business, not necessarily everyone else's) I was unaware there was some requirement to be a corporation in order to be in business.

    4. They do NOT manufacture their own product, but rather buy resin/raw material from other suppliers to create their mix.
    That all depends upon YOUR definition of manufacturing. According to the State of California and the IRS we are manufacturers. When it comes to the definition, I am only there to please those entities and am really not concerned with splitting hairs with anyone else. Should I be involved at some molecular level?

    Butch

  2. #42
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,198
    Platinum tongue

  3. #43
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    LOL not a platinum tongue. Just trying to figure out why I have to defend the choices I make as a business man. When Ootyboy said he was glad I was here "Representing" I certainly didn't feel that way. I had to come here to defend myself because someone decided it was important to cite facts that were only true in their own minds. I think it's a total waste of time and resources to sit here like I'm on trial because someone does not agree with a definition or does not agree that the amount of staff I chose to run my company with is enough to do proper business. I shouldn't have to defend the legal choices I make in regards to how my business is structured either. Nor should I have to wonder if my advertising choices were up to par with someone else's expectations.

    Anyone can say anything they want, and this stands especially true on a forum online where anonymity comes into play. Unfortunately that just mucks things up for everyone. As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this topic. It has nothing to do anymore with building a pond or helping someone better the situation they are in with their project. To me it has become counter-productive.

    Moving on,
    Butch

  4. #44
    Jumbo Steve Nguyen's Avatar
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    Dec 2004
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    Bay Area, CA
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    994
    I have to agree with Luke.... platinum tongue to say the least.

    Butch,

    maybe you would feel differently if you are to educate your customers or potential customers about your product rather than feeling like you are here to defend yourself. why on earth are you feeling that way? to be honest, reading your answers made me reluctant to try out your product.

    Steve



    Quote Originally Posted by PondArmor View Post
    LOL not a platinum tongue. Just trying to figure out why I have to defend the choices I make as a business man. When Ootyboy said he was glad I was here "Representing" I certainly didn't feel that way. I had to come here to defend myself because someone decided it was important to cite facts that were only true in their own minds. I think it's a total waste of time and resources to sit here like I'm on trial because someone does not agree with a definition or does not agree that the amount of staff I chose to run my company with is enough to do proper business. I shouldn't have to defend the legal choices I make in regards to how my business is structured either. Nor should I have to wonder if my advertising choices were up to par with someone else's expectations.

    Anyone can say anything they want, and this stands especially true on a forum online where anonymity comes into play. Unfortunately that just mucks things up for everyone. As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this topic. It has nothing to do anymore with building a pond or helping someone better the situation they are in with their project. To me it has become counter-productive.

    Moving on,
    Butch

  5. #45
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    33
    Because Steve,
    He has already tried the product and decided he did not like it, me or Pond Armor. I do not have a problem with that. Those are his opinions. However, trying to convince others some of the things he was saying was just unproductive. His basis for the statements that revolve around what I just spoke about had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a specific type of epoxy would work on concrete or not. Would the fact that I wear blue jeans on Fridays make a difference? Certainly not. It is my hope, as I stated in my first post that anyone and I mean anyone wanting to purchase any product should do their home work and make sure the product is correct for them and their application. I also stated that though I might try, I cannot make every customer I do business with happy. There are circumstances that revolve around every transaction and I do my best to accommodate. But I will not accommodate past a certain point. I have to draw the line somewhere. Unfortunately this makes a person unhappy, but I cannot be responsible for a misapplication.

    Someone saying that I blamed their construction method or I blamed their application need only listen to what is being presented as the problem. Especially after I have given the person more product at my own cost including shipping. Take your house for example. Sherwin Williams will require that you prepare the house properly before applying their paint to it. If you decided that sanding is just not something you are willing to do, then how is Sherwin Williams responsible when the paint will not stick? Obviously, as some pointed out here, certain instructions must be followed. If you have a problem with your pond leaking after having applied Pond Shield, I will go through all the questions I feel are necessary in order to get to the bottom of the problem. Sometimes egos are unwilling to allow for forward movement at times.

    As Birdman said, he had trouble with his coating. He'll be the first to tell you as he did, that it was his own fault. I covered him though. It's what I do, but one cannot expect me to give away the farm in doing so either. I can't just send him a barrel of material and say "Here you go, you'll eventually seal the leak". It doesn't work that way. I have seen people coat and recoat the exact same areas, only to miss the spot they should have been paying attention to in the first place. That's not a sign of bad product. If you do not cover 100%, you will have a potential leak problem on your hands.

    Birdman was willing to listen to what I told him and try and solve the problem, not just decide it was product failure. Like I said, with a leak it's tricky, but the person applying the coating has to be willing to at least try and follow through. The installer is the one standing there and I certainly cannot fly out to each job where a problem arises.

    I'll give you an example. I had been told once that the Pond Shield started coming off in big patches. I asked for pictures. The person sent me pictures. Sure enough it was coming off. Needless to say this person was very irritated and he let me know. I asked if he would send me pieces of the flaking material. He sent them. Do you know what I found? Under the scope while looking at the back side of the coating I found that what was attached to the coating was not concrete, but rather the calcium deposits that form on concrete during the hydration process. I called him and asked what he did to prepare the surface. I was told a litany of things that did not include acid etching. I asked why there was no acid etching and was told that it was because that was a nasty job. Well when the calcium deposits flaked off, the new coating went with it.

    Unfortunately, it wasn't the answer that he expected. Was skipping a crucial step my fault? The coating's fault? No. So the story goes.

    So I apologize if you now feel reluctant to try Pond Shield. That is your choice though. I only urge you to do your homework like I suggested though before you purchase anything.

    Butch

  6. #46
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Jan 2005
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    Near Toronto, Canada
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    1,878


    So I apologize if you now feel reluctant to try Pond Shield. That is your choice though. I only urge you to do your homework like I suggested though before you purchase anything.

    Butch[/quote]
    There are a lot of things to consider if building a cemment pond . I consulted a cemment pool company for some advice as to type of cemment the curing and the parging as well as the waterproofing of the parging it is all critical . Or no finishing coat will stand up .
    Regards
    Eugene

  7. #47
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    117
    Platinum tongue indeed…the best snake oil sales men are usually known for that. The answers are so hazy it is reminiscent of a well-oiled politician. Just beware of buying this stuff. Do your research. Based on my experience of using this stuff, there are a lot better solutions for concrete ponds than Pond Armor.

  8. #48
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Sep 2005
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    2,352
    Eugene

    Thank you for chiming in with your research experience with a 'PROFESSIONAL' pool builder and the importance of how you treat the surface of the material, in this case concrete, before applying ANY watertight coating. I've seen every one of the available products on the market fail. That includes Polyurea, nelsonite, Hecht Rubber, Permaflex. Although my experience with Pond Armor is limited, I have seen no evidence of it breaking down, yet! In each of the applications that failed and the ones that worked, the basis for the success or failure had to do with the preparation of the base material. Cut even one single minor detail of the required work and you may as well take the money you plan to spend for the product and burn it.

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeneg View Post

    So I apologize if you now feel reluctant to try Pond Shield. That is your choice though. I only urge you to do your homework like I suggested though before you purchase anything.

    Butch
    There are a lot of things to consider if building a cemment pond . I consulted a cemment pool company for some advice as to type of cemment the curing and the parging as well as the waterproofing of the parging it is all critical . Or no finishing coat will stand up .
    Regards
    Eugene[/quote]

  9. #49
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Sep 2005
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    2,352
    Quote Originally Posted by ootyboy View Post
    Platinum tongue indeed…the best snake oil sales men are usually known for that. The answers are so hazy it is reminiscent of a well-oiled politician. Just beware of buying this stuff. Do your research. Based on my experience of using this stuff, there are a lot better solutions for concrete ponds than Pond Armor.
    So, which one are you going to try next? I can't wait to see your complaints about them too!? Should be fun.

    BTW, what answers are "hazy"?

  10. #50
    Sansai
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    195
    [ZEK]This doesn't seem to be a problem with a few million swimming pools with plaster coatings? I would think this is would be a much easier & cheaper alternative to spray on polyurathane. There's also thousands of pool guys out there to work on plaster vs a few poly guys.[/quote]

    Actually swimming pools crack and leak all the time and there is an entire industry built around the repair and replastering of swimming pools both concrete and fiberglass. That's why there are "thousands of guys out there to work on plaster". The difference is that a swimming pool is a relatively easy thing to repair, it just requires time and a check book.
    A pond on the other hand is not a swimming pool but a live system that houses animals and shutting it down for a couple of months while the plaster is jackhammered off and reapplied, cracks filled or an alternative coating is applied is not an easy or inexpensive option. A large pond full of fish is at risk any time it's shut down or how about the risk to the fish load during long term quarantine or alternative housing. If the fish are of size long term quarantine can be a serious problem for a whole pond full of fish. It's a problem for a lot of people to just quarantine a couple of fish at a time now imagine the entire collection.
    The reason the pond industry has looked for alternatives to a plaster pond are numerous but mostly for the security and integrity of the system and for the safety of the fish over the long haul. Polyurea when applied properly is actually cheaper in the long run over other coatings simply because it only needs to be applied once. All others to this date have a much shorter life expectancy and must be repaired or replaced over the lifetime of the pond.
    Plaster can only be applied to a complete concrete shell but polyurea can be adapted to almost any type of structural system. This is also what makes EPDM liner so attractive for the short term.
    Polyurea is being used in applications all over the world where other systems of water or non solvent based fluid containment systems have failed and yes polyurea can fail also but is almost always the fault of the installer or the lack of proper mechanical clamping so the leaks are at the penetrations and not through the poly itself.

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