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Thread: Epoxy Coating for Concerete Pond

  1. #51
    zek
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    Sansai
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    Thanks Kent. That all makes sense to me. I'm kicking around options for the next pond and was thinking about block & plaster mainly because it's something I can easily do myself. One thing I'm not surea bout Lukes product is how crystals grow in leaks. Most substances crystalize as they dry out and dissolve in the presence of an active leak.

    Do you ever use Sanitread?

    I think I would use plaster before I sprayed Butches poly on sheets of Geotextile on dirt, or 50 mil on block. I'm sure the stuff works ok, but I have doubts on the cost of a good application.

  2. #52
    Oyagoi CarolinaGirl's Avatar
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    I would like to hear a lot more about XYPEX. That sounds like great stuff! According to their web site, it can be used for sealing swimming pools.

  3. #53
    Sansai
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    Interesting thread.

    I spray polyurea. And I have posted with butch on Koi bito on the subject of his claims of the cost of polyurea for the DIYer and reality. I find that his claims to only need 50 mils for submerged service a bit of a stretch, and his applied cost figures are a bit off. Bottom line with the polyurea end of the business, he is less than truthful to his claims of coverage and in cost comparisons to a turn key job.

    I have been to several training classes, and am a part of ongoing training with regards to different problems in applying polyurea over many different surfaces and in different applications.

    As to manufacturing, he does have a valid point. I can buy polyurea from my supplier, add a bit of anything, just a few drops, and I can claim to have manufactured the product. We do it at our retail shop here with plants. We buy the small plants in 2 inch pots, repot them in larger pots and grow them out. Per our tax code, we manufactured the plants, therefore plant sales are tax exempt on plants. Same thing on our fish we bring in. By the time they have been through the Q process, we have fed them and grown them out, so by the legal standard we have manufactured the fish so they too are exempt from tax.

    So when someone claims they manufacture a product, that does not mean much. I would be more interested in what makes him qualified to manufacture a product, ie training in chemistry etc.

    On to Armor coat. I do a lot of fixes where people have used other products before deciding that even though polyurea is more expensive initially, over the long run, it is cost effective. I have seen many ponds done with the rubber compound mentioned above that have cracked and peeled within 2-4 years. I have only seen one done with Armorcoat that had cracked and was leaking. Dont know if that can be attributed to inproper installation, poor substrate, or product failure. They ended up having to sell the house, and it is someone elses problem now. So whether or not it is a good product, I cant say one way or another.

    As has been posted, you can do many things cheap on a pond. I enjoy saving money as much as any one else. Problem is if you have to redo your pond every 5 years, how much are you really saving. And I see too many people that bragged on the front end how much they saved doing this and that themselves, when later on, someone else had to remove that application, and apply a good product that lasts.

    The last pool that I had to remove product from, and then seal was in DC. the spraying cost was about $2000, but the removal of several (read many) coats of other products took the cost to almost $16,000 and took 38 days.

    So please, before you just go slap happy applying different sealers, remember, if it dont work, someone is going to have to remove it. And the costs for that can be anywhere from 15-50+ a square foot.

    BTW, there is a reason why most people dont paint their own cars. You can, sure. But when you get done, what do you have? The paint only costs a few hundred dollars, so why does a good paint job cost 2500+. And yes, you can get one done cheap, and it lasts two or three years and then starts to rust through. There are reasons for those extra costs.

    From my personal experience, pond armor seems to be a satisfactory product. But if he runs his marketing for it like he has tried to on the polyurea, then I could see where problems like the ones posted above would happen. Dig deeper to compare true costs, not just claims.

    Kinda like going in for a refi on your house, everything is set and done, and you walk in to sign the papers and "oh by the way, your interest rate is 6.9, not 5.3, sorry, im sure that isnt a problem is it?" I can see where that can leave a bad taste in someones mouth.

    d

  4. #54
    Sansai
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    As far as the DIY polyurea goes I'd be very careful, see some that have been done, talk to the people who have used it first. Like mentioned above the skill level required to do it right the first time is high. Polyurea isn't a repair friendly process. I don't apply it but pride myself on making sure the prep for the aplicator is as perfect as I can make it. I'm pretty good at a lot of things and could learn to apply polyurea but choose not to because I can get a professional to do it right the first time. Do you want to learn all the techniques and mistakes on your own project that a professional polyurea applicator, by attending classes and hands on tutorials to become qualified, has learned before he gets to your pond?

  5. #55
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaGirl View Post
    I would like to hear a lot more about XYPEX. That sounds like great stuff! According to their web site, it can be used for sealing swimming pools.
    When I built a cemment pond and mortered rocks I first did a study of all coatings carefully looking at all specifications . I decided to go with a Polyurathane coating called Armetar .It was one coat flexible rolled and brushed on and affordable and has stood up for 10years
    Regards
    Eugene
    PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

    Armatar® MIO 4000 is a one pack, VOC compliant, moisture-cure, aromatic polyurethane coating, suitable for use in medium to heavy service environments. It has a dense surface film and flexibility that make it an excellent, surface tolerant primer or topcoat for concrete and steelwork while maintaining flexibility and corrosion protection.
    Armatar® MIO 4000 contains micaceous iron oxide (MIO) and meets ASTM D5532-94 type 1 and ISO 10601 grade 1 standards for MIO quality and content. Armatar ® MIO 4000 is compatible with Armazinc®, Armaglaze®, Armabrite® and additional coating systems.

    ADVANTAGES

    · suitable for fresh and salt water immersion environments
    · improves performance in immersion, splash zone or buried applications where coal tar epoxy has been previously specified
    · easily recoatable, field repairable and resistant to cathodic disbondment
    · has substantially reduced odor compared to coal tar epoxy
    · shows resistance to abrasion and chemical resistance to various acids, alkalis, solvents and oils, which is better than that of coal tar epoxy

    SURFACE PREPARATION

    For best performance and corrosion protection in immersion service, steel surfaces should be cleaned and abrasive blasted to a SSPC-SP 10 (NEAR WHITE BLAST) and for non immersion and buried service SSPC-SP6 (COMMERCIAL BLAST). If cathodic protection is required prime with Armazinc® or Armazinc® MIO at dry film thickness of 2-3 mil.

    COATING APPLICATION

    · Do not open until ready to use! Any moisture contamination of the product will cause rapid gelling.
    · Pot life after opening a can will depend on moisture introduced into the paint. As a guideline - newly opened cans mixed, poured into a working pot and resealed may be used for up to 1 week. If brush, roller or other applicator is dipped into the paint it may be used for 4-6 hours.
    · Armatarâ MIO 4000 should be stored at room temperature (20oC/68oF) for twenty-four (24) hours prior to application.


    · Apply when air or substrate temperatures have been higher than -6oC or 20oF within 24 hours of the application, and when humidity has been less than 90%. High humidity will reduce pot life, low temperature will increase dry time. Overcoat only after fully dried. If immersed between coats remove all traces of fresh or salt water and or other contaminants.
    · For airless spray use 0.021 to 0.027 inch tip with tip pressure of up to 2300 psi. Spray applications require a competent, experienced, professional applicator. Use medium bristle brush only on touch up or small areas. Any runs should be brushed or rolled out as they occur, and not allowed to cure hard.
    · Flush spray lines and equipment before use with Armabriteâ or Armaglaze® Reducer or urethane grade MEK. Do not use solvents containing alcohol, mineral spirits or lacquer thinners.
    · Do not strain the material before use.
    · Stir the product very well before use. Stir occasionally during use.
    · If needed use up to 10% Armabriteâ or Armaglazeâ Reducer. For immersion applications use Armabriteâ Reducer only - NO SUBSTITUTE. Do not exceed VOC limits permissible by law.
    · Moisture-cure products can be overcoated with either themselves or other compatible coatings. To verify compatibility perform a test patch. Overcoat when dry to touch or within ninety six (96) hours. IMPORTANT! Humidity acts as an accelerator with moisture-cure polyurethane systems. If relative humidity is 75% or greater, overcoat when dry to touch or within ninety six (96) hours. If the recommended recoat time is exceeded, perform a test patch to verify adhesion, or abrade the surface.
    · For the best appearance all micaceous iron oxide containing coatings should be applied in the same direction.

    EQUIPMENT CLEAN-UP

    Clean tools and equipment used to apply Armatarâ MIO 4000 immediately after use with Armaglazeâ or Armabriteâ Reducer or automotive grade MEK. Do not use solvents containing alcohol, mineral spirits or lacquer thinners.

    HEALTH AND SAFETY DATA

    WARNING: Vapor and spray mist are harmful. Read the MSDS prior to use.
    · Armatarâ MIO 4000 is intended for professional use only.
    HEALTH AND SAFETY DATA (cont.)

    · Keep out of reach of children.
    · Use in well ventilated areas, avoiding contact with skin and eyes.
    · Armatarâ MIO 4000 is combustible in wet state. Do not use near open flame or on very hot surfaces. Do not smoke during application.
    · For spray applications, NIOSH approved air fed masks or filtered respiratory systems must be used.
    · Armatarâ MIO 4000 has an aromatic odor which dissipates rapidly during the first 6 hours after application, and is eliminated when hard dry at 24 hours.
    · Wear protective clothing and gloves when handling or using solvents and coatings. Avoid skin contact.

    STORAGE AND HANDLING

    · Read Material Safety Data Sheet.
    · DO NOT FREEZE.
    · Store products with labels intact and visible in a clean, dry area protected from direct sunlight and moisture between 10-30°C (50-86°F) and relative humidity less than 50%.
    · Sealed, unopened containers have a shelf life of six months.




    TECHNICAL DATA

    Color
    Grey, Green, Black, Blue


    Finish
    Satin


    Solids
    77% by Volume 83% by Weight


    Flash point
    39°C / 102°F


    Viscosity
    800 centipoise @ 25°C / 77°F


    Specific Gravity
    12.1 lb/gal, 1.45 kg/liter


    Application Method
    Conventional or airless spray


    Wet Edge
    0.5 hours.
    Given are approximate times at 20°C (68°F) and 50%



    Dry to Recoat
    6.0 to 8.0 hours
    relative humidity. They will vary depending on



    Full Cure
    3.0 days.
    temperature and humidity


    Toxicity
    Toxic in spray state, inert in dry film


    Film Thickness
    3-5 mil dry film thickness. Per coat (4-6 mil wet film)


    Coverage
    250 ft2/US gal per coat at 6 mils wet on smooth surface. The coverage will vary dependent on profile, application technique and porosity of substrate.


    Temperature Resistance
    82°C/180°F continuous water immersion


    Free Isocyanates
    Less than 0.1% at 20°C/68°F S.T.P.


    Volatile Organic Content
    2.6 lb/gal (286 g/l)


    TEST DATA

    Salt Fog Resistance
    ASTM B117 (1000 hours)
    pass



    Adhesion
    ASTM D3359
    5B



    Abrasion Resistance
    ASTM D4060 (1kg Taber, CS-17)
    45 mg per 1000 cycles



    Immersion
    NACE TM-01-74/ASTM C-868 Corrocell
    Distilled Water, Ambient temp., 7824 hours
    no visual change


    The furnishing of the information contained herein does not constitute representation by Aquarius Coatings that any product is free from patent infringement claims of any third party nor does it constitute the granting of a license under any patent of Aquarius Coatings or any third party. Aquarius Coatings assumes no liability for any infringement which may arise out of the use of the product. Aquarius Coatings warrants that its products meet the specification which it sets for them. Aquarius Coatings DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES relating to the products, and DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES RELATING TO THEIR APPLICATION, expressed or implied, including but not limited to warranties of MERCHANTABILITY and FITNESS FOR a particular purpose. Receipt of products from Aquarius Coatings constitutes acceptance of the terms of this warranty, contrary provisions of purchase orders not withstanding. In the event that Aquarius Coatings finds that product(s) delivered are out of specification, Aquarius Coatings will, at its sole discretion, either replace the product(s) or refund the purchase price thereof, and Aquarius Coatings choice of one of these remedies shall be the buyer’s (purchasers) sole remedy. Aquarius Coatings will under no circumstances be liable for any consequential damages, except in so far as liability mandated by law. Aquarius Coatings will deliver products at agreed times in so far as it is reasonably able to do so, but Aquarius Coatings shall not be liable for failure to deliver on time when the failure is beyond its reasonable control.

  6. #56
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Naples FL
    Posts
    29
    I have had five major ponds in the last twenty years. Many of you have seen various pictures of them over the years including when I had an alligator get into my garden pond. The ponds have ranged in size from 4500 gallons to 39,000 gallons. I have had Fiberglass, EPDM and Polyurea coatings. I am not telling you this to boast but to let you know I am not someone who is just talking theory but have had real experience with these products. In my opinion Polyurea is by far the best possible product available in today’s market.

    First, anyone who has ever owed a gunite or concrete pool with a plaster coating knows that the question is not if it will leak it is when it will leak. Maybe this is because I live in SW Florida and the ground is soft but every one of my friends from other parts of the country has told me the same thing. The flexible coating of Polyurea eliminates this problem.

    Second, Polyurea is not a do it yourself product. I know I went to the expense of buying my own rig. I thought that this would be handy to have and play with. While I do know how to spray properly I have no desire to do such a hot nasty job. As I have gotten older in life I take my pleasures were I can get them and spraying poly is not one of them I would rather watch my koi and enjoy the pond. A professionally installed poly linear is a life time product. You only need to do it once and it is done. The reason it is important to have a competent installer is ponds are very complex; I have yet to see one with out its own issues either because of shape, plumbing or location. Real Professionals have had to deal with many situations and generaly know how to work their way through them. I have and would recommend at least 100mils of the product being applied over a sound substrate, If you are using a flexible substrate I would never want anything less than 120 mils

    My third point is cost. While poly is not cheep, after several ponds I have learned building right the first time is the only way to go. I would rather take five years to save and pay for building a pond than build it on the cheep and spend five years fixing it only to tear it all out and start all over. Now I am not saying there are not other alternatives. I know many EPDM liner ponds that are very successful and I know nobody researches the cost on any product like my friend Luke. However if you are going to the expense of building a first class koi pond then do yourself a favor and do it with the best possible materials.

    As far as customer service everyone has different expectations as to what level of service you need. For me I want it done right the first time and I hope not to need customer service after the job is done. If you have a good installer or a great product they should be able to give a long list of satisfied customers. Do your home work and check their references. I am always skeptical of references obtained form the internet. Unfortunately the internet has become a place were many people have lot of hidden agendas. If you are looking to have something done ask the vendor for local references and either visit or talk to their clients directly.

    I really do love the poly product it is a great material.

    John

    Disclaimer: While I have friends that build ponds for a living I do not. I receive no income from the koi or pond business what so ever. I learned a long time ago there are much easier ways of making money. I enjoy the hobby way to much to make a business of it.



  7. #57
    Sansai
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    169
    One additional post to the one I made above, there are resin epoxies available that have been used quite successfully on concrete. One notable one was for the SC game and fish people. 6 raceways that had quite a bit of damage over the years.. They did fix the damage with the epoxy, and then recoated the whole raceway. Figured it would extend the raceways for at least another 10 years. Worked out to about 15 bucks a SF. Again, these epoxies are not DIY items. They are also a very rigid system, not at all flexable. So if you need flexable, epoxy is never a good idea.

    d

  8. #58
    Meg
    Meg is offline
    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zek View Post
    Thanks Kent. That all makes sense to me. I'm kicking around options for the next pond and was thinking about block & plaster mainly because it's something I can easily do myself. One thing I'm not surea bout Lukes product is how crystals grow in leaks. Most substances crystalize as they dry out and dissolve in the presence of an active leak.

    Do you ever use Sanitread?
    my pond is coated with sani-tred and I am very pleased with it thus far...3rd year now.
    cinder block walls with skim coat to smooth out everything
    then sani-tred. did it myself too.
    but if I had know about Lukes stuf I would have done some more research. sounds easy to use and very cost effective!

  9. #59
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    We researched the Zypex a bit. According to the rep and the manufacturer's tech, the crystals that form will rehydrate if water is available (leaking). The crystals then swell and change their molecular structure, thereby sealing the leaks. Talked to our gunite guy. He says, "yeah, we've added it to the gunite we shoot, especially on swimming pools and retaining walls where a moisture barrier was required. Interesting stuff!

    Mike

  10. #60
    Fry
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    I have never tried pond armor and I do not know the gentlemen that sell the stuff but I have to ask ootyboy a couple of questions. You complain about their customer service after the sale, but the pond armor rep says that he sent you additional product at no cost. Is this true? If it is, I'm sorry but in this day and age of almost non-existent customer service, that is going above and beyond normal customer service. From what it sounds like, he most likely thought you didn't apply per the directions from the start and he still overnighted you more product at his expense. What more did you want from him? Come and apply the stuff for you? The other question is... what does these guys being painters have to do with anything? I was a food server back in the day and I hope my current colleagues don't go around saying that I'm just a waiter. All it shows to me is that he knows that prepping is the most important part of the application of this product, as he described in his Sherwin Williams example. I'm new to the whole pond building experience and I am in the planning stages of my first pond so I have no experience to draw from. These are just my impressions from reading this thread while researching pond sealers.

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