Pond Project Redux

[Russell Peters]

Originally Posted by ootyboy

Russel, are you saying that you can actually create a concrete sub-surface that does not crack? I can tell you that I am not a concrete expert, but I've spoken to many concrete professionals, and the one certainty with concrete is that it WILL crack. It might not be today, or tomorrow or even five years from now, but it is guaranteed to crack, regardless of the amount of rebar that you use.

This is especially true in Northern California, where the ground moves quite a bit, and at least where I live, the soil is hard clay which hardens in the summer and expands in the winter with rains, causing cracks in walkways, walls etc.

Now we all agree, that Epoxy for all its merits, does not flex. If the structure moves as a result of settlement (which cannot be avoided), or ground movement, it will fail. No amount of concrete work will solve that problem.

However, the main point of this thread is not to talk about Epoxy or Pond Armor, but rather to share a narrative of my project with the group. As such I will continue....

Think about it, yours cracked in three months. That is an indication of substandard work. I am a general contractor and work in concrete all the time. If the ground is properly prepared and compacted. You should not have had any movement in three months. If the pond were constructed properly and the ground moved, the pond should have been able to withstand that small movement without cracking.

I work with many engineers that design rebar shedules for different applications. One of them designed a pool on a hillside. The hillside gaveway and the pool tumble down the hill. When the pool was insepcted it was still one uniform, intact shell. No cracks.

I only brought this up because the product did not fail, your substrate did.

[mstrseed]

Well let me jump in with both feet and splain a bit about concrete. By no means a expert but a wee bit of it under my belt.............................

"Concrete professionals" are people who make a living with concrete, experts, nope just folks out to make a buck. If it works great, if not a million excuses why not. Those stating "it will crack" are the ones who do not fully understand what happens.

Batch design, proper curing, consolidation and proper reinforcement are all keys and all need to be in the upper 85% for it to work as designed.

Most "concrete professionals" and I shall use that term loosely, have no clue, as they were taught one way and never change. Most get cracks in everything they pour..........why? There lazy and like to add water. Water makes it easier to work but the more water the more it shrinks during the hydration process causing cracks.! Now you can offset that with chemicals which you will use less water but the mud will be more liquid and more (easier) workable. The trade off is it cost a bit more so it get into the profit margin so it not used unless it specifically called for.

Next is curing, I have 14 day water cured all of my pours including the gunite when sprayed. Why? it cures slower and causes no or at the very most hairline cracks. I have NO cracks on any of my structures.....................................

Design, more sack mix is better than less. 4 or 4.5 sack mix is too weak to use for ponds as the water to cement ratio is almost always compromised. I personally use mimum 6.5 sack mix and prefer 7 sack straight cement NO FLYASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reinforcement, got to have it and it must be the proper size and spacing. If your gessing go with more not less. Concrete professionals will tell you one thing and a structures engineer will tell you something else, why? The structures engineer puts his stamp on the line ever time he designs something, and concrete guy does not! Make sure its centered not laying on the ground or against a wall.............................................. .....

Something to ponder: concrete does give and take, ie flex, move and shake, bounce and or vibrate..........ever sit at a red light and your vehicle is on a bridge???? Ever feel the movement???

[Russell Peters]

Originally Posted by mstrseed

Well let me jump in with both feet and splain a bit about concrete. By no means a expert but a wee bit of it under my belt.............................

"Concrete professionals" are people who make a living with concrete, experts nope just folks out to make a buck. If it work great if not a million excuses why not. Those stating "it will crack" are the ones who do not fully understand what happens.

Batch design, proper curing, consolidation and proper reinforcement are all keys and all need to be in the upper 85% for it to work as designed.

Most "concrete professionals" and I shall use that term loosely, have no clue as they were taught one way and never change. Most get cracks in everything they pour..........why? There lazy and like to add water. Water makes it easier to work but the more water the more it shrinks during the hydration process causing cracks.! Now you can offset that with chemicals which you will use less water but the mud will be more liquid and more (easier) workable. The trade off is it cost a bit more so it get into the profit margin so it not used unless it specifically called for.

Next is curing, I have 14 day water cured all of my pours including the gunite when sprayed. Why? it cures slower and causes no or at the very most hairline cracks. I have NO cracks on any of my structures.....................................

Design, more sack mix is better than less. 4 or 4.5 sack mix is to weak to use for ponds as the water to cement ratio is almost always compromised. I personally use mimum 6.5 sack mix and prefer 7 sack straight cement NO FLYASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reinforcement, got to have it and it must be the proper size and spacing. If your gessing go with more not less. Concrete professionals will tell you one thing and a structures engineer will tell you something else, why? The structures engineer puts his stamp on the line ever time he designs something, and concrete guy does not! Make sure its centered not layibg on the ground or against a wall.............................................. .....

Something to ponder: concrete does give and take, ie flex, move and shake, bounce and or vibrate..........ever sit at a red light and your vehicle is on a bridge???? Ever feel the movement???

Thank you, this is what I know to be true.

[mstrseed]

Thanks Russ, but did I mention compaction for the footings....................

[Russell Peters]

Originally Posted by mstrseed

Thanks Russ, but did I mention compaction for the footings....................

No, but I did in my previous post.

[ootyboy]

Russel, if 3 months is not the usual time for concrete to crack, then what is? Perhaps I could have spent thousands of dollars, hired a structural engineer and found one of the "few 'clueless' professionals that are accepted to follow a very specific methodology and created a replica of the Hoover Dam"!! Then I could have spent another thousand or so dollars (which I did with Pond Armor) and Epoxied the walls. That would have really assured me a solid surface for -----(Fill in the blanks for the number of years) But then again, we all know that even the Hoover Dam leaks a whole lot.

The point of this argument is not that there are a million ways to make a concrete structure. I am sure if you ask ten people who’ve ever built a concrete pond, you will get 10 different opinions. The point here is what is the best and most cost effective way to create a tank that would hold water for a very long time without leaks so that we can enjoy our Koi? No offense to anyone on this forum, but I am more inclined to believe a concrete professional who works with this stuff every single day when they tell me that they have never seen a concrete structure that did not crack over time. We all know that when the concrete cracks, so will the Epoxy liner!! That is why the only solutions I see as long term are EPDM liners or Polyurea!!

[mstrseed]

Originally Posted by ootyboy

Russel, if 3 months is not the usual time for concrete to crack, then what is?

If the ground settled then that would not be out of line...............

No offense to anyone on this forum, but I am more inclined to believe a concrete professional who works with this stuff every single day when they tell me that they have never seen a concrete structure that did not crack over time. We all know that when the concrete cracks, so will the Epoxy liner!! That is why the only solutions I see as long term are EPDM liners or Polyurea!!

If it cracks that much even polyurea will rip.............................

Come look at my pond and find cracks, bring you concrete guru too...................It can be done but only if its right.
Oh, my experience............. over 20 years heavy construction. Been involved in over 250K yards poured.............................personally.

[Nancy M.]

Originally Posted by mstrseed

If it cracks that much even polyurea will rip.............................

Come look at my pond and find cracks, bring you concrete guru too...................It can be done but only if its right.
Oh, my experience............. over 20 years heavy construction. Been involved in over 250K yards poured.............................personally.

Amen Bill

My pond is 10,000 gallons, it does not have any cracks or leaks... it is 11 years old. Hell we live in earth quake central.

If the pond is built with the proper structural integrity the chance of of it cracking is minimal to none.

Some things you just can't go the cheap route, including concrete and structural design, and the big one filtration... Otherwise you wind up with a leaking pond.


My hubbys experiance building freeways, high rise buildings, and koi ponds.......

[lypope]

Nancy, don't forget Frank's experience in building large public aquariums, too.

[Nancy M.]

Originally Posted by lypope

Nancy, don't forget Frank's experience in building large public aquariums, too.

Whoops I forgot the Long Beach Aquarium of the pacific...