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Thread: Pond Project Redux

  1. #21
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Hi Joelan

    This was not posted as an affront towards Jeff or his work. If ootyboy would have stated the idea of the backerboard in his first post, I wouldn't have mentioned it. It's obvious, like the rest of us, he'd like to have a nice pond, but nice ponds don't come cheap. Nice ponds are CORRECTLY BUILT ponds and the structural integrity was the issue I was discussing. So, no need to get defensive here. Just trying to help the guy get off on the right foot the SECOND time around. I just have to agree with Russ and Misterseed on the main structure that is in play and his ideas about filtration.

    Ootyboy

    Forget the other discussion on the other thread and think your filtration through before you end up having to change it a third time. First off, how many pumps and what size do you plan on using - one? I imagine it's probably at least 1/3HP to run the 10000Ultima in line!? They run about 3.8-4.5 amps. You could use the same amount of basic electricity with two pumps - one for the main circuit to jets and the other from the skimmer(s) to the Bakki showers once they're installed. This is also for safety sake when it comes to your filtration. If one pump goes down, you still have one circuit running part of the system. Then there's no need for the Ultima 10,000 to be used. Therefore, no big head loss from a pressure filter!!!

    Also, if you use your vortex as a settlement/mechanical filter, your second chamber would provide a much better bio function without collecting as many solids. Simply add a round "blue" Matala mat on top of the settlement chamber and gravity feed to your bio from above the Matala. Works much better when using only two chambers and it's easy to clean. As you're not worried about it's use for bio, just hose it off when you dump the settlement chamber and you're good to go.

    Also, I forgot to mention one other thing - the bottom drain. You mention that you were going to go with the Rhino. Have you checked out the DreamPond "Koi Toilet" Bottom Drain. They're half the price. Also, in case you ever need to replace the air diffuser, it simply unthreads from the dome. They cost around $40-50. If you need to replace the diffuser on the Rhino, I understand the cost is around $140 as THEY ARE THE DOME. Oh, and you'll have to figure out how to cut the air line to it as well, which comes in from the side. A poor design in my opinion as the tubing can catch algae and leaf debris and reduce the performance of the drain line. The Koi Toilet gets it's air supply directly through the standpipe which comes up through the bottom of the unit. The bowl is also just that, a rounded bottom edge BOWL, not a squared off finish inside. This all can detract from the proper flow you want for your drain line. Just food for thought, especially if you're trying to save a few bucks here and there like the rest of us!

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by Geishakoi View Post
    Hey Mike!

    Relax, let the guy share his pond with everybody. Nobody coated over another coating. The material that was put up was backerboard shot in with a Hilti gun, and we have done this on several ponds. Works out really good on vertical surfaces that have multiple issues. I am sure he will post pictures for you. He has limited space, so he'll control the flow through the vortex by increasing the flow with the skimmers. He did not want to add more pumps because of the electrical expense. He has a real nice pond, and he is going to watch his fish load until he can increase his filtration with his bakki shower.

    So sit back, relax, have another smoke, or whatever you do????????

    Last edited by koiczar; 05-05-2008 at 04:14 AM. Reason: added BD info

  2. #22
    Nisai
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    I think we are diverting quite far from the intent of this thread: To share and exchange knowledge with the group about my pond project. I rather not spend too much time talking the merits of concrete construction. My plan is to use the existing structure and spray Polyurea. As for the structure, we will use concrete backer boards nailed into the structure to provide a smooth and strong surface -- End of story!

    Koiczar, thanks for the suggestions about the bottom drain. I did consider Koi Toilet II aerated bottom drain. The price difference between the Koi Toilet II aerated bottom drain and the Rhino II was pretty small -- I would say around $40-$50. Also, the Air Dome can be screwed on and off with the Rhino version that I got. No need to glue the air dome to the drain. I saw both units, and personally liked the construction of the Rhino II. I was built using schedule 80 PVC, and looked solid from what I could tell.

    Going back to the filtration question, I am glad you brought up the idea of capturing solids in the Vortex. This is a question that has been bothering me for some time. I have the settlement chamber drilled with a 4" bulkhead and a stand up 4" pipe in the chamber. However, given the flow rate, I would think that all solid, except the really big stuff would flow through the first tank to the second.

    I had thought about ordering a Vortex Micro Strainer for the Wave 36 filter from William Lim. He claims that this will stop all solids from moving to the second chamber. However, it is quite expensive for a simple screen.

    I really do like your idea of using the Blue Matala 37" round filter in the first chamber to capture solids. It is a much more cost effective solution that the screen.

    However, my main question is which method does the group think would work better in a 2 Vortex setup in capturing solids? The Mat or the Micro Strainer?

  3. #23
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    The microstrainer would work better for sure. However, due to cost, I suggested the Matala. You could always start there and see how it works out. If not, it gives you the time to be able to save a few bucks and then invest in the microstrainer.

    What about your pump situation? Are you up for fixing that issue? Two for the price of one and you'll actually increase for flow rates! Something to think about, eh?

    Incidentally, as far as the BD is concerned, are you saying that the entire dome screws off the Rhino and the Koi Toilet doesn't? The first part is true, but the air diffuser IS the dome. That's why it's so much more to replace it when necessary. The koi toilet's dome also screws onto the support post and includes an o-ring to prevent air from escaping once threaded on. The air diffuser then threads onto the dome and they are separate pieces. Thus the greater savings when replaced. But, it's up to you. I have installed the Koi Toilets on three jobs now and they really work out beautifully. Also, when used in a gunite pond, they are "code" where the Rhino is not!

    Mike

  4. #24
    Sansai MysticKoi's Avatar
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    If you need to replace the diffuser on the Rhino, I understand the cost is around $140 as THEY ARE THE DOME. Oh, and you'll have to figure out how to cut the air line to it as well, which comes in from the side. A poor design in my opinion as the tubing can catch algae and leaf debris and reduce the performance of the drain line. The Koi Toilet gets it's air supply directly through the standpipe which comes up through the bottom of the unit.
    Mike... I think you are confusing the Sugarloaf air drain with the Rhino drain. The air diffuser on the Rhino screws off from the dome, which also can be screwed off (two separate components, just like the Toilet). Further, the air to the Rhino is supplied through the central support shaft (again, just like the Toilet).

    Things I like about the Rhino;
    (1) Much stronger and robust than the Toilet - schedule 80 (not sure what you mean when you say the Toilet is code approved)
    (2) Rebar tie down
    (3) Seperate air line
    (4) Seperate air diffuser
    (5) Full unionized air check valve

    Things I like about the Koi Toilet
    (1) Cheaper (ABS?)
    (2) Separate air line
    (3) Seperate air diffuser
    (4) Bowled bottom

    Kind Regards,
    Bill

  5. #25
    Nisai
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    Koiczar, thanks, I agree that for the short term I am going to go with the Matala matting. If solids are still getting through, then I can dump some money into a Micro Strainer.

    As for the pump, I am going to with a single, but rather powerful pump. I am using a Evolution ESSB10,500 pump, with 3" inlet and outlet. This pump is rated @ 10,500 gallons @ 5 Feet. It is a little overkill, but this is a pump that I've had for my pond since June. So instead of throwing it away, I thought I would use it.

    Long term I plan to break out the skimmers and plumb them into a smaller pump and run a second circuit.

  6. #26
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Bill

    When I was shown the drain in question, I was told by the dealer it was a Rhino. He had two different ones on the shelf and may have confused this with the Spindrifter himself. If what you've explained is correct, and I have no doubt that it is, then it's a toss up if cost difference is negligible. As far as "code" what I meant was the depth spacing between the lip of the bowl and the top of the discharge fitting is considered code for gunite (minimun 3") where it is nearly 4" and can be tied into a rebar frame very easily.

    Ootey

    That pump you have will certainly do the trick, we just installed one on a large pond construction we did last year on the main filter line and it works extremely well. In your system however, how much flow do you plan to run through your settlement chamber,etc versus your skimmer and what type/how many skimmer(s) do you have? This pump really does put out what it says. The only thing I'm a little concerned with is the stated watts draw of 540. When we installed the unit, I noticed on the info plate on the side of the pump that it rated the motor at 3/4hp. Maybe it has something to do with how it's matched up with the impeller that makes the difference and how it performs under load. Are you still planning on using the ultima 10000 in the system?

    Mike

  7. #27
    Sansai MysticKoi's Avatar
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    Bill

    When I was shown the drain in question, I was told by the dealer it was a Rhino. He had two different ones on the shelf and may have confused this with the Spindrifter himself. If what you've explained is correct, and I have no doubt that it is, then it's a toss up if cost difference is negligible. As far as "code" what I meant was the depth spacing between the lip of the bowl and the top of the discharge fitting is considered code for gunite (minimun 3") where it is nearly 4" and can be tied into a rebar frame very easily.
    Mike... yea, sounds like this dealer showed you a Spindrifter (air diffuser is connected via a hose routed through the main PVC line), and not a Rhino.

    As noted, there is a price difference between the Koi Toilet and the Rhino. IMHO, it is a function of you get what you pay for. Hmmm... you really should check out the Rhino as an option, as I think you will find them to be a quality piece of hardware, and for some worth the extra cost. That said, I do like the Koi Toilet for some applications (I carry both).

    Thanks for the code explanation. I went out and measured our Rhino display unit and found that it would have 4" of coverage over the main PVC pipe. So, I guess it meets code as well.

    Kind Regards,
    Bill

  8. #28
    Oyagoi koiczar's Avatar
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    Bill

    Did some checking today and you're correct. It was a Spindrifter that I was shown. If the Rhino has the 4" clearance, it will stand up to code for a gunite installation. I would/do recommend that a couple of 22 1/2 degree fittings be place immediately to allow the plumbing to get completely under the gunite for better installation protocols.

    Mike

  9. #29
    Nisai
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    Koiczar, I plan on plumbing the second vortex directly into the pump. The thing I really like about this pump, is that it is 3" in and out. This really helps the flow, when I finally get the Bakki Shower installed.

    For now I plan to bring 2 no-niche skimmers in-line with after the vortex, but before the pump. The pump is so powerful, that by itself it will suck the vortex dry. So I will need the skimmers to manage the flow.

    I also plan on using the Ultima 10,000 after and run through my UV. Once I have the Bakki showers installed, I am inclined to skip the Ultima and go directly from the pump to the Bakki. From what I understand most users with Bakki showers will not need UV.

    However, I would hate to get rid of the Ultima. Does anyone see a scenario where I could keep the Ultima in the system?

    As a side note, I agree with Mystickoi about the quality of the Rhino II. It is very well built, and the air dome is easily screwed on and off.


  10. #30
    Nisai
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    Here are some more pictures of the construction: Pictures of the bottom drain installation, my jmats and the ditch for the bottom drain. BTW: All bottom drain piping is Schedule 80 PVC!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pond Project Redux-img_9169.jpg   Pond Project Redux-img_9171.jpg   Pond Project Redux-img_9172.jpg   Pond Project Redux-img_9174.jpg  

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