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Thread: Pond Skimmers

  1. #21
    Nisai
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    Hi Nancy,

    This is my last post for the night - my wife is rolling her eyes at me.

    As you look at many of the photos posted on this board - many of them have pond skimmers on them - from the likes of Savio and others.

    Again, not talking gravity vs. skimmer here - we're talking skimmer to skimmer.

    Koi killing skimmers. All weir door based skimmers can be classified as "Koi killing skimmers". Straight out of the box without modification - and without building a pre-strainer grate system - any skimmer with a weir door will trap Koi in the skimmer. Not all skimmers feature weir doors - we're talking about the ones that do.

    Anyone with a pond skimmer on their pond should place their brand next to HydroClean side by side and compare feature for feature. That's all I'm asking. You'll see what I'm talking about. Set your personal dislike of me aside and look at the units on their own merits.

    Anyway - gotta go - so you have free reign to bash me all night long. I'll see you all tommorrow.

    Sincererly,
    John Russell
    www.russellwatergardens.com

  2. #22
    Tosai berkokid's Avatar
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    Nancy / Steve -

    Thanks for your thoughts ... again, rest assured i chose the product i wanted based on my budget and stage of development of my project. Point being, I knew what I was getting into, I just thought I would have a couple of days to create my own solution to koi safety ... turns out I didn't even have a couple hours ... my loss.

    FWIW: my homemade PVC-based tension rods seem to be working really well ... in fact, I watched one of my koi this morning chase food right up to the skimmer and then get stopped by the PVC rods ... he sort of hung out there for a few seconds trying to get in, but alas turned away for richer waters ... it was quite satisfying to see ... particularly a few moments later when a cedar tree twig with needles floated right into the skimmer

  3. #23
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Russell View Post
    Hi Steve,

    The clamp is not behing the liner, or under soil. Look at the photo - you can clearly see the clamp and the stainless steel nut. It is completely accesable.

    Gravity vs. suction. Again, not the topic of this thread. This thread is skimmer brand to skimmer brand. You may be right that your gravity system is better than all suction skimmers - but we're discussing skimmers vs. skimmers. Apples to apples.

    Any grate in front a skimmer inlet that prevents Koi from entering the skimmer can, will, and does prevent leaves on other debris from entering the skimmer too. Thus, reducing the efficiency of the skimmer. If it blocks out a fish, it'll block out a leaf. If you're happy with reducing the skimmer's efficiency in order to improve Koi safety - that's OK by me. Our skimmer design simply lets Koi swim into and out of the skimmer without reducing its skimming efficiency. For those that want an efficient skimmer, that is safe for Koi without modification, that hides in the landscape without piling rocks and wood over it - then HydroClean ponds skimmers are the best choice.

    If a person wants a cheaply priced, mass marketed, Koi killing, weir door based pond skimmer - then that's the perogotive. We have an alternative that is not cheaply priced, that is not mass marketed, doesn't kill Koi, and doesn't need a weir door or any homemade mechanical pre-strainer. HydroClean.

    Thanks again Steve.
    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    John,
    I am not sure where you are reading "This thread is skimmer brand to skimmer brand." but the title of this thread is "Pond Skimmers". You are the one that made it your brand against another. I am simply offering another, more viable solution than what you presented.

    As I mentioned in my original post, a weir, either fixed or variable is the only method available to maximize the draw from the surface. Protecting the koi from the weir is easy, even with your competition's model. Below is a simple grating. the slots can cut with larger or smaller openings based on the size of the koi and precut to fit snuggly into the opening. It doesn't block solids like you insinuate. The draw to the skimmer pulds leaves and other debris thruogh. You conclusions are once again flawed based on lack of research and mis-assumptions. There are no pads to clean nor basket since it is removed and the solids are left to the seperation chamber to handle much more efficiently and with much easier maintenance.

    Now, I love the concept of allowing a koi to swim into a skimmer...NOT! A large koi into a 6" pipe can easily get stuck or get to the point within the skimmer where they cannot turn and certainly get damaged. John, that is simply one of the most rediculous thing I have yet to hear in the koi hobby.

    Your last paragraph is beyond humorous. Scare tactics! Gotta love it.

    Below are pictures for you John. Ask anyone who has installed a similar system and you'll hear nothing but praises for this style of skimmer system. IK doubt that you would ever find anyone who has tried this that would ever consider going back you your or your competitions style of skimmers.

    Steve
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Pond Skimmers-grid.jpg   Pond Skimmers-skimmerinside.jpg   Pond Skimmers-bead.jpg   Pond Skimmers-vortex.jpg  
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  4. #24
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berkokid View Post
    Nancy / Steve -

    FWIW: my homemade PVC-based tension rods seem to be working really well ... in fact, I watched one of my koi this morning chase food right up to the skimmer and then get stopped by the PVC rods ... he sort of hung out there for a few seconds trying to get in, but alas turned away for richer waters ... it was quite satisfying to see ... particularly a few moments later when a cedar tree twig with needles floated right into the skimmer
    Jonathan,

    What you did was what any reasonable Koi keeper would do.........kudos for coming up with a solution, but sorry for your having to learn the hard way..............

  5. #25
    Nisai
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    Hi all,

    Steve, here is a photo of a 6" skimmer inlet with the stainless steel clamp holding rubber liner to the pipe. You can clearly see the stainless steel nut is fully accessable.



    As far a scare tactics - the term "Koi killing" came from Larry the Koi Cop in describing water garden ponds. He made such a great point with that little phrase. It was used again in another post where people were talking about salt - be accurate or be a Koi Killer. Another post criticized anyone who places a pond's appearance ahead of Koi safety as Koi Killers.

    In this thread, a person has a brand of pond skimmer that killed one of his Koi - so natually I assumed people here would brand it a Koi Killing skimmer. If it had been one of my skimmers - you know deep down that people here would be all over it - calling our skimmer a "Koi Killer". But since its another brand .....

    Your grate system may work. I'm not one of those people that says something doesn't or won't work untill I actually see it. You are a very intelligent man with years of experience - you probably have a modifaction for most brands of skimmers on the market. The point here is that you have to modify other brands of skimmers to protect Koi. Our skimmers require no "after-market" modification to be safe for Koi.

    Yes, a Koi larger than 6" tall or wide (not length) would get stuck in our piping system. A 6" tall Koi is usually 12" long or longer (not a rule - but in most cases) Koi of that size and age aren't the typical Koi that get caught in pond skimmers. It is the 8" long and smaller. An 8" long Koi usually isn't 6" tall or wide - especially when new to a pond.

    In our testing, we accutally placed 2", 4", 6", 8", and 10" long Koi, goldfish, and trout (all from 1.5" to about 5" tall) inside our skimmers with the pumps running to see if they could get out. This is how we learned at what "Flow rate" they can get out. All can easily get out when the flow rates and pipe sizes we suggest are followed.

    The leaf net in our skimmers is very large - to hold a large volume of leaves - so there is plenty of room for a Koi up to 12" in length to turn around in our small skimmer, and and 16" Koi in our large one. Also, there is no hardware or sharp edges inside the skimmer for the Koi the damage themselves on as seen in this photo below.


    You can do the test your self - and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    This board is for people who love their Koi. Many Koi owners have complaints about pond skimmers that kill their Koi behind weir doors. We listened and saw a market niche. Our skimmers are designed to solve that issue without after-market modification.

    As far as needing a weir door or not - if you re-read my earlier post in which I describe water velocity and skimmer suction with variable pipe diameters hopefuly you'll understand. If not, then all I can do is to ask you to see one of our units in action - how it actuall does work - before righting it off. That's all I ask.

    Skimmer to skimmer - we believe ours to be the best choice for Koi ponds. Compare it side by side with any brand of pond skimmer. Put them on ponds side by side with each other. See how they perform - see how they get installed - see how they are serviced - see how the get plumbed - see how they blend into the landscape, and see how safe they are for Koi - all without after-market modification. That's what we did, and that's how we came up with our design. Research, test, research, test.

    We are unlike virtually all other manufacturers. We have actual working test ponds in a retail setting for people like all of you to come see. We have direct relationships with the end users. We are unlike other manufacturers in that the end users have direct contact with the head of the company - and the end user is directly involved with product research, developement, and testing. To my knowledge, there is no other manufacturer that gives the end user direct access to R&D the way we do. So to insinuate that we don't do research is simply not accurate. Anyone who has visited our facility would know that.

    Thanks so much for your time.
    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    www.russellwatergardens.com

  6. #26
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Russell View Post
    Hi all,

    Steve, here is a photo of a 6" skimmer inlet with the stainless steel clamp holding rubber liner to the pipe. You can clearly see the stainless steel nut is fully accessable.


    OK John, you got me on the clamp butthat picture raises other issues such as a large protrusion into the pond (the pipe) and the potential for a sharp object (the clamp) also causing damage. Not good.


    As far a scare tactics - the term "Koi killing" came from Larry the Koi Cop in describing water garden ponds. He made such a great point with that little phrase. It was used again in another post where people were talking about salt - be accurate or be a Koi Killer. Another post criticized anyone who places a pond's appearance ahead of Koi safety as Koi Killers.

    In this thread, a person has a brand of pond skimmer that killed one of his Koi - so natually I assumed people here would brand it a Koi Killing skimmer. If it had been one of my skimmers - you know deep down that people here would be all over it - calling our skimmer a "Koi Killer". But since its another brand .....

    Your grate system may work. I'm not one of those people that says something doesn't or won't work untill I actually see it.

    Ahhh, but John, you did in fact say my sysem would not work when you said the following in a previous post:

    Any grate in front a skimmer inlet that prevents Koi from entering the skimmer can, will, and does prevent leaves on other debris from entering the skimmer too. Thus, reducing the efficiency of the skimmer. If it blocks out a fish, it'll block out a leaf.
    You can't have things "both ways" John.

    You are a very intelligent man with years of experience - you probably have a modifaction for most brands of skimmers on the market. The point here is that you have to modify other brands of skimmers to protect Koi. Our skimmers require no "after-market" modification to be safe for Koi.

    John, first, thanks for the compliment but while one may have to modify other brands of skimmers, I would still have to modify yours. I would never allow for a 6" pipe protruding into the pond like yours does. I would also not allow a clamping system like yours and I certainly would put a grate over the inlet (more to follow on that in the next section of my response).

    Yes, a Koi larger than 6" tall or wide (not length) would get stuck in our piping system. A 6" tall Koi is usually 12" long or longer (not a rule - but in most cases) Koi of that size and age aren't the typical Koi that get caught in pond skimmers. It is the 8" long and smaller. An 8" long Koi usually isn't 6" tall or wide - especially when new to a pond.

    John, I beg to differ. It is koi of the larger sizes that I get most concerned over since they too will follow the flow into a skimmer in search of the trapped food within. Seen it dozens of times "live" and equally as many after the fact, "dead". These larger koi represent exponetially larger losses as well.

    In our testing, we accutally placed 2", 4", 6", 8", and 10" long Koi, goldfish, and trout (all from 1.5" to about 5" tall) inside our skimmers with the pumps running to see if they could get out. This is how we learned at what "Flow rate" they can get out. All can easily get out when the flow rates and pipe sizes we suggest are followed.

    Good for you John, but why allow them in in the first place and allow for "mature koi" (24"+) to be even exposed to the possibility of entrapment or damge in getting into the piping? What about the intermediate sized koi? What about a koi that is otherwise in distress that can't fight the currents?

    The leaf net in our skimmers is very large - to hold a large volume of leaves - so there is plenty of room for a Koi up to 12" in length to turn around in our small skimmer, and and 16" Koi in our large one. Also, there is no hardware or sharp edges inside the skimmer for the Koi the damage themselves on as seen in this photo below.

    John, you are still missing the point, they shouldn't be in there to begin with. Flight response alone in a tight environment will put the koi at an added risk.


    You can do the test your self - and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    No way would I ever subject one of my koi to a testing situation where I perceive flaws (that jeopordize the koi) to begin with.

    This board is for people who love their Koi. Many Koi owners have complaints about pond skimmers that kill their Koi behind weir doors. We listened and saw a market niche. Our skimmers are designed to solve that issue without after-market modification.

    I agree with your original premise that manufactured skimmers with weirs have flaws. But, I think you still need to go back to the drawing board with yours since I see an equal (if not more) number of flaws in yours.

    As far as needing a weir door or not - if you re-read my earlier post in which I describe water velocity and skimmer suction with variable pipe diameters hopefuly you'll understand. If not, then all I can do is to ask you to see one of our units in action - how it actuall does work - before righting it off. That's all I ask.

    John, understanding the dynamics of the flow pattern into a 1/2 pipe (susch as your skimmer) verses a horizontal plane (caused by a weir) is pretty simple. The horizontal plane creates more suction across the surface water (top 1/2" verses water at depth of up to 3").

    Skimmer to skimmer - we believe ours to be the best choice for Koi ponds. Compare it side by side with any brand of pond skimmer. Put them on ponds side by side with each other. See how they perform - see how they get installed - see how they are serviced - see how the get plumbed - see how they blend into the landscape, and see how safe they are for Koi - all without after-market modification. That's what we did, and that's how we came up with our design. Research, test, research, test.

    Sorry John, although I would not opt for you competitor's model, I cetainly would not opt for yours either and have presented a far superior method in this thread.

    We are unlike virtually all other manufacturers. We have actual working test ponds in a retail setting for people like all of you to come see. We have direct relationships with the end users. We are unlike other manufacturers in that the end users have direct contact with the head of the company - and the end user is directly involved with product research, developement, and testing. To my knowledge, there is no other manufacturer that gives the end user direct access to R&D the way we do. So to insinuate that we don't do research is simply not accurate. Anyone who has visited our facility would know that.

    So tell me John, what end users helped to develope this skimmer and what was their experienc elevel in doing so?

    Thanks so much for your time.
    Sincerely,
    John Russell
    www.russellwatergardens.com
    Thanks for your time too John.

    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  7. #27
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Russell View Post
    Set your personal dislike of me aside and look at the units on their own merits.
    Hello John . . .

    As far as I know, folks like me, Nancy, Steve, & the others don't have a 'personal dislike' for you.

    We don't even know you -- and if we did, I'm sure we'd all say you're a swell guy.

    It's what you do, say and represent that bothers us.

    So you can bet that if you keep pitchin' your low-end trinkets on this high-end board you'll continue to get the same responses you've gotten so far.

    Sorta like a door-to-door salesman trying to pitch a 5 volume encyclopaedia set to a librarian.
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  8. #28
    Oyagoi mstrseed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Hello John . . .

    As far as I know, folks like me, Nancy, Steve, & the others don't have a 'personal dislike' for you.

    We don't even know you -- and if we did, I'm sure we'd all say you're a swell guy.

    It's what you do, say and represent that bothers us.

    So you can bet that if you keep pitchin' your low-end trinkets on this high-end board you'll continue to get the same responses you've gotten so far.

    Sorta like a door-to-door salesman trying to pitch a 5 volume encyclopaedia set to a librarian.
    You tell em "Larry"

    Quote Originally Posted by John Russell View Post


    As far a scare tactics - the term "Koi killing" came from Larry the Koi Cop in describing water garden ponds.
    Thanks so much for your time.
    Sincerely,
    John Russell

  9. #29
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstrseed View Post
    You tell em "Larry"
    You can call me Don; or you can call me Donald; or you can call me Perry; or you can call me Donald Perry; or you can call me Chandler; or you can call me Lieutenant; but puh-leeze don't call me Larry!
    _____
    Don "KoiCop" Chandler

  10. #30
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    Hello John . . .

    As far as I know, folks like me, Nancy, Steve, & the others don't have a 'personal dislike' for you.

    We don't even know you -- and if we did, I'm sure we'd all say you're a swell guy.

    It's what you do, say and represent that bothers us.

    So you can bet that if you keep pitchin' your low-end trinkets on this high-end board you'll continue to get the same responses you've gotten so far.

    Sorta like a door-to-door salesman trying to pitch a 5 volume encyclopaedia set to a librarian.

    John, I have to agree with Larry on this one, I do not dislike you at all, as I do not know you as a person.

    However I do detest your constant saleman pitches....

    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    You can call me Don; or you can call me Donald; or you can call me Perry; or you can call me Donald Perry; or you can call me Chandler; or you can call me Lieutenant; but puh-leeze don't call me Larry!
    _____
    Don "KoiCop" Chandler

    ROTFLMAO

    Lieutenant Donald Perry Chandler

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