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Thread: Pond Rocks 4 Hiding??

  1. #11
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Davenport, Oklahoma
    My reference to the "delusion" was directed at the marketing approach taken by the WG/Koi Pond promoters as a sales pitch. Pitching the rock laden heavily planted style as "natures way" is both dishonest and environmentally incorrect. I fully understand the concept you have employed, which is far removed from the typical R&G approach, or even the usual "compromise/crossover pond" sales pitch.
    While I wouldn't choose your setup to house Koi, I can understand why you did as you don't plan to keep fish that will be devalued by the occasional bump or missing scale here and there. Precious few "compromise ponds" resemble yours in any meaningful way.
    I WANT to be able to show my Koi, catch them with relative ease, and preclude any man made circumstance that could provoke even a mild injury, even to a mutt...
    Larry Iles

  2. #12
    Understood, Larry, and thanks.


  3. #13
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Southern California
    Hello Falcon47 . . . .

    Thanks for your prompt response.

    Let's see if we can step through this and reach some common ground here, OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon47 View Post
    Whether there is one, fifty, or five hundred, the point of the thread was are boulders (not pebbles) an absolute contraindication to having Koi within the pond, right?
    Contraindication to having koi within the pond: No.

    Contraindication to keeping show koi in such a pond over a period of time: Yes.

    On that much we would seem to agree, yes?

    And since this is a serious koi forum for the serious hobbyist, I thought he wanted a serious answer -- so that's what I gave him (not you).

    I mean, there should be some in situ congruence, correct? After all, one shouldn't expect a different kind of answer on this board, should they?

    You, of course, are free to do as you wish. And there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that your koi are far, far better off than those in 'typical' AS-esque or RWG-esque ponds. For that, I honor you.

    As for why I was quantifying approaches to ponding, it all goes back to his 'consensus' question. Consensus involves quantification. Or so I seem to remember from my Statistics classes (ages ago).

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon47 View Post
    And why would the cost of a hybrid be any more or less than a formal pond, except for the cost of the boulder(s)? The only point, or I thought it was, was what if Cal wanted to have a boulder or two in his pond so his Koi could have a place to hide, and the automatic 'no rocks' sign came on, and this was simply providing another viewpoint. That it is possible to maintain healthy Koi in a pond with boulders, not pristine GCs, that has been stated, but for the average person who likes to have some Koi swimming in their feature. This does assume it is built otherwise to the specs of the formal pond, ie, depth, filtration, water quality, etc. This is in no way referencing the 1' deep ponds that are traditionally associated by some with water gardens.
    Again, Falcon, this is not the average board for the average ponder. K-B is about show koi, koi shows, their breeders, dealers and ponds. I repeat: Congruence.

    I mentioned the issue of cost for one reason: Folks who buy expensive koi tend to house them in expensive ponds and vice versa. I mean, who builds a ten car garage to house junker autos (however beloved they are)?

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon47 View Post
    And again, it would appear your elitism is coming through on the question in which you reference 'pond mutts'. It may come as a surprise, although it would be disappointing if it was, but it seems that many folks enjoy having Koi, who are not interested in winning awards or taking them to shows. I appreciate the pursuit of perfection you and some others on this forum take with your Koi, it is to be commended. What I don't understand is why you need to take the elitist approach, by denigrating those who are just happy to see Koi in their backyard and enjoy taking care of them.
    Elitist. Here we go again.

    That would appear to be a word that is derogatory to you --but a compliment to me, since I use it in a scientific sense whereas you would appear to be using it in a social sense?

    And I'm not denigrating anyone anywhere on the Bell Curve of this hobby.

    I volunteer my time at KoiVet helping folks learn about the Nitrogen cycle and the importance of water changes; so don't lay that trip on me.

    I'm all about helping newbies with our hobby's steep learning curve. But again: Congruence.

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon47 View Post
    It would be assumed that those who are in Koi Clubs and on one of the premier Koi forums around, that the hobby of caring for Koi should be encouraged, and not just if they are future GCs? And why is it so difficult to see that to some, it is the overall look of the feature as I mentioned earlier, rather than the perfection of each individual Koi which interests some folks more. If it means that only those that pick the perfect Tategoi, or can afford next year's GC are welcome on this forum, then perhaps I've joined the wrong forum?
    Now, here, we have our first MAJOR disagreement. To me it's all about the koi -- not the feature.

    Speckledigoi or Dainichi tategoi, all koi have the same basic requirements to thrive -- not just survive.

    And to sacrifice the science for the art is a sin I cannot and will not abide.

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon47 View Post
    And again, your next question shows that you misunderstood my point. I don't want to place high quality Koi in our feature - never have, never will, but I do enjoy seeing and caring for the 'mutts'. You again mentioned the netting for show, again missing my point. I already conceded the difficulty in netting for first aid, and that is a distinct drawback, and someday that may occur, but with healthy fish and good water quality, it is hoped that risk can be lessened.
    Lessen the risk all you want: IMHO, someday you'll have to pay the Piper.

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon47 View Post
    And really quite immature to mention the 'lack of taste', but I now understand where you're coming from, and it sounds as though you've got some strong sentiment about this. And as I mentioned in my post to Larry, I hesitated even posting out of concern that a rational discussion on the topic couldn't be carried out, but I thought higher of the forum than that and gave it a try. If honest discussions can't be carried out in a rational fashion, perhaps this isn't forum isn't the right fit for me or for those who keep 'non-show grade' Koi. Or it may be, but we should just sit in the background and absorb the knowledge without contributing a different viewpoint or raising a point for discussion?
    How is mentioning 'taste' in any way immature? After all, the science of keeping koi healthy over the long term and helping them to achieve their genetic potential is a given.

    Everything else is nothing but 'taste' (or lack thereof).

    And as for an honest, rational discussion: What else can this dialogue be classified as? And on what other board could you have this kind of open & honest discussion?
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  4. #14
    Thanks for the reply, Don.

    Absolutely agreed about not keeping show koi in a pond with boulders and even plants.

    And I appreciate the premier status which this forum holds within the Koi realm, which is why it is the only forum which I review re: Koi. But loads of posts come through here from beginners to the absolute beginners, and you folks do a great job of trying to educate them. Sometimes frustration shows through in the discussions with certain threads, but that is understandable.

    The cost analogy with the garage doesn't make alot of sense to me. It would be more like someone who has worked with wood for years, and has built some fine pieces over the years for his/her family, and spends 3 months making a really nice jewelry box for their spouse, even though the spouse doesn't have expensive jewelry to go into the box, it still looks great on the dresser and he/she gets to appreciate its beauty and the hard work for years to come. Whether it holds 5 ct diamonds or costume jewelry, that is irrelevant. Or the homeowner who enjoys landscaping and re-does the entire hardscape of their home, but doesn't use expensive cultivars for the plantings. It still looks great, even though the plants won't win any awards and are common everyday nursery plants. On a nursery forum this might be met with the same skepticism from some hardcore plant folks. But I absolutely disagree that everyone who builds a waterscape has to match the Koi which are placed in it at the same level. What if that person simply enjoys seeing Koi swimming around, mirroring in the pond the colors which have been planted peripherally? Some may see the entire picture as I, whereas some may have the more discerning eye as you have for each and every aspect of each and every individual Koi. Different strokes for different folks.

    So, we definitely disagree about the role of Koi in our backyard pond, Don, and as that is a personal opinion which people have the right to hold, I don't expect to or wish to try to sway your view, and guaranteed you won't sway mine on this aspect. I respect your opinion and understand it - it just isn't how I feel about it. But I'm still learning alot from this forum and hopefully our 'mutts' are better off for my participation here.

    I apologize for this thread becoming tangential, Cal, and I won't pursue any more posts in this regards, but I appreciated the opportunity of sharing a different perspective with you about boulders in a Koi pond, and thanks for that.


  5. #15
    Meg is offline
    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Florida Panhandle
    Quote Originally Posted by falcon47 View Post
    And some ponds are designed with both plants and Koi in mind. They share many attributes of a formal Koi pond's construction with >5 foot depths, multiple bottom drains, water turnover of total pond volume in 1 hour, high capacity biological and mechanical filtration, strong current flow, and healthy water quality and clarity, yet they do have boulders with multiple reefs and they do have lots of aquatic plants.
    five foot depth, stronge water currents......can you expound on the many water plants that thrive under these conditions? all the ones I have found thrive in shallow and still waters, and once my koi reached a certain size they dinned heavely apon them. Perhaps being just two years in the hobby your koi have not reach this size and you have not come home to discover all your prized plants are eaten and shredded. Yes, there is a wide spectrum of possibilities to ponding, but many of the possibilies contradict and clash. these different needs are why there is a proper way to house koi and a proper way to garden water plants. Sure, you can TRY to blend them, but then in the long run they both fail to thrive.

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