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Thread: A visit to Purdin Koi Farm

  1. #41
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Ethan,
    If you will recall about a year or so ago we were looking at pictures of a showa you had recently purchased. One of the pictures "appeared" to reveal a crooked head. We asked you for more pictures and a careful personal examination to reveal if that was true, or if it was just the photo angle.
    It was only after the careful examination of multiple photos taken from different angles and your personal observation that we concluded that to be the case.
    Try to learn from your own experience and be a little slower to "leap" to conclusions. We know you meant well. You just need to work on your judgment a bit more.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  2. #42
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    Ethan,
    If you will recall about a year or so ago we were looking at pictures of a showa you had recently purchased. One of the pictures "appeared" to reveal a crooked head. We asked you for more pictures and a careful personal examination to reveal if that was true, or if it was just the photo angle.
    It was only after the careful examination of multiple photos taken from different angles and your personal observation that we concluded that to be the case.
    Try to learn from your own experience and be a little slower to "leap" to conclusions. We know you meant well. You just need to work on your judgment a bit more.

    I know, friend. I took his word for it after he said it was the picture. I actually just started a thread that has that fish in it for review. It's always easier to judge a fish in person than by a photo. Just ask Childers.

    The views I have are completely representative of who I am, and may/may not be representative of clubs I may or may not be a part of.

  3. #43
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen View Post
    Kellie and Sandy, you guys are so lucky to be able to watch/help with the culling at Purdin's. Wish I live a little closer...........but then again, if I do then my wife will be building me a doghouse for sure. Sandy, I am surprised that you haven't claimed this kohaku for yourself. Maybe I should shoot Scott or Bill about this kohaku.

    I am sorry if I have made a misleading statement. I have never been to Purdin at culling time, or harvest time. I have only been once 2 years ago to pick up a couple fish, a showa and a kohaku. But for the hour or two I was there, I enjoyed every last minute. They took time from there very busy schedule, showed us (kntry and I) some of the filtration, some of the culling tanks, some holding tanks, the big concrete ponds, parent stock, etc. It was very educational and sooooo much fun. Like I said before, awesome people with awesome koi! I am hoping to get a chance to go back in the fall.

  4. #44
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelliewindham View Post
    I am sorry if I have made a misleading statement. I have never been to Purdin at culling time, or harvest time. I have only been once 2 years ago to pick up a couple fish, a showa and a kohaku. But for the hour or two I was there, I enjoyed every last minute. They took time from there very busy schedule, showed us (kntry and I) some of the filtration, some of the culling tanks, some holding tanks, the big concrete ponds, parent stock, etc. It was very educational and sooooo much fun. Like I said before, awesome people with awesome koi! I am hoping to get a chance to go back in the fall.
    Thanks for the clarification, Kellie. I look forward to possibly meeting you at the Purdin tosai ikeage this year. If not then I am sure that our paths will cross in the near future.

  5. #45
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    Ethan,
    If you will recall about a year or so ago we were looking at pictures of a showa you had recently purchased. One of the pictures "appeared" to reveal a crooked head. We asked you for more pictures and a careful personal examination to reveal if that was true, or if it was just the photo angle.
    It was only after the careful examination of multiple photos taken from different angles and Ethan's personal observation that we concluded that to be the case.
    Try to learn from your own experience and be a little slower to "leap" to conclusions. We know you meant well. You just need to work on your judgment a bit more.
    Now THAT is funny.
    Ethan shows a fish that he thought was OK...and You find that the head looks odd (something Ethan and the breeder in all probability did not see because they were looking at a moving fish and not a static photo which is an AID when determining aspects such as body deformities).
    In Dick's pics it is quite obvious there is a "distortion" in that area...and it appears not only in the first pic(where it wasn't picked up by Dick) But is also showing on the opposite side of the fish in the next photo that DICK shows in an attempt to prove that the fish does not have a head "issue."
    And it isn't a little "crookedness" to the head which could be explaind away by yhe fish moving at the time...in both pics there is a divot in the skull in the same place on both sides of the skull...
    So all Ethan had to say was , "Sorry the pics show something that isn't there. The Showa is completely straight. You know you can't trust pics." And then everyone would have believed him?

    Well Ethan wanted to seek the truth so he took more pics instead of just denying it was there bu posting a pic where that area can not possibly be judged.
    The Point is: Photos are a valuable aid when trying to determine the quality of a fish in regard to its body structure. Photos do not lie in regard to body shape or abnormalities. Photos are NOT good when determining the quality of the skin or the true color of the fish because photographers and HOBBYISTS consistently do not show unflattering photos of fish they like or want to sell or buy.
    People that are promoting a certain breeder do not usually post pics where the fish appears to be deformed, but when a pic shows a deformity and it is posted on a public forum the member seeing the issue in the photo should not need to defend himself.

    I believe Purdin has alot of good koi...the thing is that the people that post pics of them often do the farm a disservice ..Does anyone remember the series of photos of tosai that were posted on a forum that were from Purdin a year or more ago? Those pics required several posts to clarify why the fish looked so unattractive.

    When photos are said to "not be a good way to judge Koi" it is because the people posting the photos often try and hide the flaws of a fish by choosing the best of the pics.... the "glamor shot" ,,,some are even photoshopped..

    When a flaw is seen it is not appropriate to apply the adage, "You can't judge koi from photos." the reason you can't judge a koi from a pic is that pics are chosen by the poster to show the best of a koi, when a flaw is seen it IS THERE.

    I will give an "out" for the flaw seen on the head of that Kohaku...it is a very young koi and when koi are that young the front 1/3 of the skull is still quite flexible...it can actually be scarey to watch them grind down a pellet of food with their teeth because their nose comes to a sharp point with each "chew."
    perhaps this fish is so young that its plates haven't developed adequately yet....
    but nevertheless, the kohaku in those photos does show an area of real concern.

  6. #46
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    Larry, trust me, Scott, Bill and Maureen don't miss a thing. I've been there culling with all of them for the last couple of years. They are very thorough. But I know YOU already know that.
    Horse Hockey!
    the best of the best "miss a thing."
    Depending on how secure a breeder is they will tell you how many times they pick the wrong fish, or sell the best fish out of the spawn from the "cull tank" only to see it years later winning at a major show... or miss an obvious flaw because they were enamoured by the skin quality and PATTERN (which this koi seems to have).

    being human is being flawed

  7. #47
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    we've all taken a picture that we regret posting, becuase it turns quickly into a "well, it doesn't look like that in person"; and we are 100% sure of it, but the picture itself "proves" in other's minds that there is an issue.

    I trust that if Dick says the fish is fine, that it probably is. I would be surprised to learn that it made it past the culling stages with the deformity that it looks to have in that first picture.

    But, again, we have the weakness of seeing it in a still frame picture, where water distortion and lense movement can make things seem different than what they are.

    everyone who is in love with Purdin's fish talks of the amazing skin quality, which can't be judged by a photo well, but can be viewed in some ways...so I am going to guess that this one also has the "it" factor when it comes to skin. If we can't look at pictures and judge what we see, then why do we post them continuously, looking for answers and discussion? All it will lead to is more questions, answers and discussion.

    I thrive on that, because at this point, I am unable to routinely attend places where there are high quality fish. So this computer is all I got.
    The views I have are completely representative of who I am, and may/may not be representative of clubs I may or may not be a part of.

  8. #48
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Luke, it’s a figure of speech. Everyone makes mistakes but if this fish really had a deformity like that, there’s no way it would have made it through at least 3 culls. It just won’t happen. Not at Purdin or anywhere else.
    The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
    SANDY

  9. #49
    Fry
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    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, including Ethan! And while I don't know the difference between Purdin koi and any other farm, I do know the original picture made that pretty kohaku look jacked up in the frontal region.

    Out of a hundred pictures of my fish I may only choose 5 or 6 pics to post. Not because there's anything wrong (that my untrained eye can see) with my fish, but because the moving water distorts the fish in ways that make it look like they are messed up, skinny, and half retarded. Maybe the first and second pictures of the kohaku were just unflattering water distorted pics. But we won't really truly know until it comes out of the mud pond and we get 100 new photos of it posing every which way

  10. #50
    Fry
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    Ethan, did you see the pic Dick posted 6 minutes before your last post?

    Another example of not judging koi by a pic.
    I saw it too, the fish also looks odd in front of the other eye in the second picture as well. I'd love to see pics of this fish after it comes out of the pond though

    My opinion.

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