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Thread: Showa X Chagoi cross

  1. #1
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Showa X Chagoi cross

    I have a male showa and a female dark reddish brown GR chagoi.
    Would like to breed them. This will be my first breeding mostly for the joy of it.
    Does any one know what the outcome will be?
    Is there any possibility for show quality fish?
    What should I be culling for?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    LOL.... You are mixing so many genetic bases that about all you will not get is hikarimono. There is virtually no chance of obtaining show quality, except there might be something truly unique that could aim for 'Most Unique Award'. I think I would cull for 'patterned Chagoi/Soragoi' A Cha Utsuri might turn up. They can be strangely attractive in an ugly sort of way.

  3. #3
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    He he he

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    LOL.... You are mixing so many genetic bases that about all you will not get is hikarimono. There is virtually no chance of obtaining show quality, except there might be something truly unique that could aim for 'Most Unique Award'. I think I would cull for 'patterned Chagoi/Soragoi' A Cha Utsuri might turn up. They can be strangely attractive in an ugly sort of way.
    So for short your advise is not to mix them. He he he!
    Dont have other big fish!
    strangely attractive in an ugly sort of way!!!!!! He he he.
    What can I breed the GR chagoi with to get something not "strangely attractive in an ugly sort of way"

  4. #4
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    They can be strangely attractive in an ugly sort of way. That's hilarious.

    This type of cross will have reasonably high percentage of dark chagoi. The is will make culling difficult early on as all of the chagoi, showa and utsuri fry will have a similar appearance. For roughly the first 2 months it will be just about impossible to tell them apart. You'll need to keep too many in order to find something good. Success in breeding is in part dependant upon good culling technique.

    Do you have access to a female showa or utsuri? In this cross, you will have roughly 20% of the fry identifiable as possible showa and utsuri within the first week or so. So, the first cull is to keep all the black ones at this age. Being able to cull this early will increase the chances of raising more of the good ones.

  5. #5
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    When you breed a pair, you have to have something in mind to shoot for. It comes from understanding the basic reality of what each set of genetics brings.

    most folks understand that in showa spawns, the iniial cull comes within days of hatching and only black fry are kept.

    With gin rin, my experience has been that it takes 4-6 weeks before you can determine those that have the GR feature and those that don't.

    I encourage you to try, not so much as to try and breed a "quality koi" but just for the eperience of it. It's the knowledge you'll gain, even if it just comes down (which I imagine will happen) to the respect acknowledged to those that have dedicated their lives to breeding show quality koi.

    It ain't easy and it has to be a passion. I imagine you'll use the natural spawning method so be prepared to guard the health of participants. It's an easy way to loose a good Koi.
    Dick Benbow

  6. #6
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Thanks guys!

    I dont want to breed ugly Koi.
    Experience I need.
    I would have to do it, When I construct my new pond so I can keep most of the babies.
    Second option order another fish from abroad.
    But I really wanted to breed the chagoi.
    What Koi is the best to breed it with, so maybe I order her a husband.
    Should it be another GR chagoi?

  7. #7
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Other than matching Chagoi color variants to obtain color variants, I don't think the genetic base of Chagoi lends itself to much, but does give a wide field for experimentation. You are inherently dealing with un-refined genetics, so un-refined offspring can be expected. A lot of backyard breeders aim for Ochiba, using Chagoi, Ochiba and Kohaku in the mix. They usually end up with a lot of dull tosai. A very few actually produce some Ochiba worth pond space. With all of these types, the special attraction is the body conformation, large size and the contrast against refined varieties. In a pond of gosanke, the Chagoi stands out. A tub of such fry is really rather boring. Personally, I think I would look toward Kigoi, Higoi and Karashigoi with a goal of a brighter single-colored fish with a strong body. If you decide to be adventurous, then Yamabuki would add all sorts of possibilities, but your Showa would also. Whatever you do, have fun. I'll hope you get one keeper out of the experience.

  8. #8
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Other than matching Chagoi color variants to obtain color variants, I don't think the genetic base of Chagoi lends itself to much, but does give a wide field for experimentation. You are inherently dealing with un-refined genetics, so un-refined offspring can be expected. A lot of backyard breeders aim for Ochiba, using Chagoi, Ochiba and Kohaku in the mix. They usually end up with a lot of dull tosai. A very few actually produce some Ochiba worth pond space. With all of these types, the special attraction is the body conformation, large size and the contrast against refined varieties. In a pond of gosanke, the Chagoi stands out. A tub of such fry is really rather boring. Personally, I think I would look toward Kigoi, Higoi and Karashigoi with a goal of a brighter single-colored fish with a strong body. If you decide to be adventurous, then Yamabuki would add all sorts of possibilities, but your Showa would also. Whatever you do, have fun. I'll hope you get one keeper out of the experience.
    Mike,
    This a bit like Japanese to me. U forgot I am newbie???
    One think I see is that U will aim at Kigoi. Is that not some how an albino??? and U need albino genes for it?Saw it somewhere here. Peeling up the onion???
    I love karashigoi.
    What can I breed my chagoi with to get that?

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    OK. I was moving to fast in my comments. (But, maybe you are moving too fast to take up breeding? )

    Kigoi can be an albino form, known as Akame Kigoi. (That translate into: red-eyed yellow carp.) Kigoi does not have to be albinistic, but the better colored ones typically are.

    How to create Karashigoi is being kept secret by the originator. Soon there will be breeders all over with Karashigoi x Karashigoi offspring and we will then see what range of varieties come out of that.

    What needs to be understood is that only a few varieties breed reasonably true. Even the gosanke (Kohaku, Sanke and Showa) do not breed 100% true by any means. When I refer to 'refined genetics', that is a part of what I'm trying to communicate. (Another aspect is the genetic distancing from wild carp, which do breed true, pretty much.) The varieties of koi are determined by the outward appearance of the fish, not the genetic composition that gives the phenotype of the particular individual. So, you might have a Sanke x Sanke match and a Kohaku x Kohaku match, and a Goshiki x Kohaku match. Out of all 3 batches of fry, there may well be individual fish that are Kohaku by outward appearance. But, genetically, the 3 batches have very different compositions and there will be recessive genes that express themselves in future generations.

    Any way, I do not mean to dampen your enthusiasm with too much realism. If everyone was completely realistic, we would never have dreams, nor fun. In moments of frustration, one of my partners is fond of saying "Life is a *****, and then you die." To which I reply, "Only if you take everything too seriously to enjoy it."

  10. #10
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    OK. I was moving to fast in my comments. (But, maybe you are moving too fast to take up breeding? )

    Kigoi can be an albino form, known as Akame Kigoi. (That translate into: red-eyed yellow carp.) Kigoi does not have to be albinistic, but the better colored ones typically are.

    How to create Karashigoi is being kept secret by the originator. Soon there will be breeders all over with Karashigoi x Karashigoi offspring and we will then see what range of varieties come out of that.

    What needs to be understood is that only a few varieties breed reasonably true. Even the gosanke (Kohaku, Sanke and Showa) do not breed 100% true by any means. When I refer to 'refined genetics', that is a part of what I'm trying to communicate. (Another aspect is the genetic distancing from wild carp, which do breed true, pretty much.) The varieties of koi are determined by the outward appearance of the fish, not the genetic composition that gives the phenotype of the particular individual. So, you might have a Sanke x Sanke match and a Kohaku x Kohaku match, and a Goshiki x Kohaku match. Out of all 3 batches of fry, there may well be individual fish that are Kohaku by outward appearance. But, genetically, the 3 batches have very different compositions and there will be recessive genes that express themselves in future generations.

    Any way, I do not mean to dampen your enthusiasm with too much realism. If everyone was completely realistic, we would never have dreams, nor fun. In moments of frustration, one of my partners is fond of saying "Life is a *****, and then you die." To which I reply, "Only if you take everything too seriously to enjoy it."
    I asked because He looks interested and is chasing her.
    I am slowly digesting the above, almost getting there.
    is the Akame kigoi not a double recessive albino gene?
    and kigoi single???

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